Look at the logic

[marksman315]

In NKJV, Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'".

This seems so clear to me that Jesus is talking about a man and woman being married together and not a homosexual relationship. There are other verses supporting this, but I do not know everything.

Now if two men cannot be married to each other, and two women can't be married to each other, then they can only be with each other in a non-sexual relationship. If they have sex then it is fornication. Sex outside of marriage is sin. It all seems pretty simple to me.

So while homosexuality is not the worst sin (since all sin is evil in the eyes of God, does it really matter which one is worse?), why do we have pastors who are openly gay preaching the ways of sin as if it was righteous?

Can we please discuss this logically?

 

[KCKID]

In NKJV, Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'".

This seems so clear to me that Jesus is talking about a man and woman being married together and not a homosexual relationship. There are other verses supporting this, but I do not know everything.

Now if two men cannot be married to each other, and two women can't be married to each other, then they can only be with each other in a non-sexual relationship. If they have sex then it is fornication. Sex outside of marriage is sin. It all seems pretty simple to me.

So while homosexuality is not the worst sin (since all sin is evil in the eyes of God, does it really matter which one is worse?), why do we have pastors who are openly gay preaching the ways of sin as if it was righteous?

Can we please discuss this logically?

The 'logic' of this is that - regardless of what the WORDS in a book say - people ARE sexually attracted to one another regardless of their gender. How can one's innate feelings be a sin, for goodness sake? Sexual practices may well be viewed by God as being a 'sin' outside a committed relationship. This is why any number of 'gay' people these days are opting for marriage which is a public display of commitment. 'Gay' males have no sexual interest in females. 'Gay' females have no interest in males. So, who has the authority to tell them who they SHOULD be sexually attracted to? THAT is illogical.

Homosexuality is just the way it is and we need to recognize this and stop vilifying fellow human beings for what is basically a non-issue.

* It should be noted that any number of professed heterosexual Christians have had sexual relations before marriage. Promiscuity (sex outside of marriage) is not a homosexual issue.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

The 'logic' of this is that - regardless of what the WORDS in a book say - people ARE sexually attracted to one another regardless of their gender.

There is not some inherent contradiction between Scripture and the things of nature. Scripture already makes it clear that people are sexually attracted to one another -- fornication is an issue that is mentioned several times throughout the Bible. Dismissing the theological assumptions of Scripture (its inerrancy specifically) does not support your argument. It unravels Christianity entirely and consequently makes God unknowable. If you are to assert that the Bible is simply a book, then its meaning becomes relative to the reader. Are you willing to suggest that Christianity is relative? Does God define theology or do men?

How can one's innate feelings be a sin, for goodness sake?

Whether or not there exists a predisposition to homosexuality is not relevant. If there exists such a thing, it is a disorder, and only made into sin as a consequence of one's actions. It is a disorder because it exists as something other than how God created man in his natural state. Similarly, for example, depression may be more innate to some people, but it is not a sin; it's a disorder. Taking one's own life, however, as a result of that depression is a sin.

Sexual practices may well be viewed by God as being a 'sin' outside a committed relationship

Fornication is clearly rejected in Scripture. Peter and James assert in the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) that fornication is one of several things from which people ought to refrain. The only theologically recognized 'committed relationship' is marriage.

* It should be noted that any number of professed heterosexual Christians have had sexual relations before marriage. Promiscuity (sex outside of marriage) is not a homosexual issue.

All sexual relations outside of marriage are wrong. That heterosexuals are guilty of this, however, does not justify homosexual fornication.

It is not enough to say "that's the way it is" to justify a thing unless we assert that "what ought to be" is less important than "what is". That people may be predisposed to homosexuality is readily accepted by the Church; such is the case that people lust, homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. That is not in doubt. But what is asserted by the Church that homosexual activity is a sin on the basis that it is fornication; just as pre-marital or extra-marital sex, masturbation, and any other sexual relations outside of marriage. Much of the legitimate concern from the Christian community does not come from the reality that there are people attracted to the same sex -- but that many times, the actions committed on the basis of that attraction are not recognized as sin though the same actions (i.e. outside of marriage) by heterosexuals are clearly sins. If marriage is the litmus test of fornication, then if we accept that one thing outside of marriage is a sin, we must accept that everything outside of it is sin. So my criticism is that some homosexuals, certainly not all, attempt to justify homosexual activity despite the commonly accepted view that it is indeed sinful. It is sinful not because it is somehow inherently different from heterosexual fornication, but because it is in fact fornication.

 

[MercyBurst]

In NKJV, Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'".

This seems so clear to me that Jesus is talking about a man and woman being married together and not a homosexual relationship. There are other verses supporting this, but I do not know everything.

Now if two men cannot be married to each other, and two women can't be married to each other, then they can only be with each other in a non-sexual relationship. If they have sex then it is fornication. Sex outside of marriage is sin. It all seems pretty simple to me.

So while homosexuality is not the worst sin (since all sin is evil in the eyes of God, does it really matter which one is worse?), why do we have pastors who are openly gay preaching the ways of sin as if it was righteous?

Can we please discuss this logically?

It's called the Gay Christian Movement, by the way, and it's just some good old-fashioned church apostacy -- that's all. It's a sign that some churches won't be with us much longer as God snuffs out their candlestick even as He said:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I have a whole blog on the subject. Try these articals:

Historical Christianity can not be Reconciled with Gay Christian Theology

Protestant Church of the Withered Branch

Why Do Fundamentalists Single Our Gay Christians to point out their sin?

Familiar Gay Affirming Arguments

The Sin of Gay Christian Doctrine

About God Hating Shrimp

PS, Marksman... please post your blog link. Thank you.

 

[tulc]

It's called the Gay Christian Movement, by the way, and it's just some good old-fashioned church apostacy -- that's all. It's a sign that some churches won't be with us much longer as God snuffs out their candlestick even as He said:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I have a whole blog on the subject. Try these articals:

Historical Christianity can not be Reconciled with Gay Christian Theology

Protestant Church of the Withered Branch

Why Do Fundamentalists Single Our Gay Christians to point out their sin?

Familiar Gay Affirming Arguments

The Sin of Gay Christian Doctrine

About God Hating Shrimp

PS, Marksman... please post your blog link. Thank you.

Uhmmm who besides you calls it the "Gay Christian Movement"?
tulc(where you been? haven't seen you for a while)

 

[Washington]

It's called the Gay Christian Movement, by the way, and it's just some good old-fashioned church apostacy -- that's all. It's a sign that some churches won't be with us much longer as God snuffs out their candlestick even as He said:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I have a whole blog on the subject. Try these articals:

Historical Christianity can not be Reconciled with Gay Christian Theology

Protestant Church of the Withered Branch

Why Do Fundamentalists Single Our Gay Christians to point out their sin?

Familiar Gay Affirming Arguments

The Sin of Gay Christian Doctrine

About God Hating Shrimp

That's quite a preoccupation you have with homosexuality. Care to explain this inordinate focus on the sexual behavior of others? Makes one wonder if thou dost protest too much.

 

[alexwylde]

How can one's innate feelings be a sin, for goodness sake?

I don't really take a stand as far as condemning homosexuals. Their lives are their business with God. I have no place to judge them.

As for this statement, I think if one were to look logically at it, we can determine that there are a number of "innate" feelings which are in fact sinful. For one there is the desire to have sex. When you love someone and are physically attracted to them, you innately want to be romantic with them--whether in wedlock or not. It's not like our innate feeling is to want to have sex ONLY if we're married. That idea is simply preposterous. So this "innate" feeling of lust which has no regards to marital status is sinful. There is also the "innate" feeling to survive. I think that it's not radical to say that every living organism has this instinct. If we simply go off of what our "innate feelings" tell us, with no regards to what Christ taught (i.e., being compassionate and loving towards all fellow man), then we would be at odds with God.

Therefore, I believe there are quite a few "innate" feelings which are sinful, so it is not a terrible stretch to believe that homosexuality may also be one of these.

 

[MercyBurst]

That's quite a preoccupation you have with homosexuality. Care to explain this inordinate focus on the sexual behavior of others? Makes one wonder if thou dost protest too much.

Off topic -- you go to my ignore list.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Just in case anyone wants to know the Gay Christian Agenda...it's JESUS

 

[tulc]

Off topic -- you go to my ignore list.

hmmm that must be quite a list by now, is it getting hard to post in here with all those people on ignore?
tulc(never understood what use an ignore list is on a debate forum)

 

[Washington]

Off topic -- you go to my ignore list.

Ah ha! Wonder no more.

In any case, you're the one who announced "I have a whole blog on the subject," opening the door to the subject of your preoccupation with homosexuality. The fact that you "have a whole blog on the subject" is no more germane to the issue marksman315 raised than is my follow up on your bragging. A simple "consider the following observations" would have sufficed. If you don't want people commenting on your remarks I suggest you don't make them.

 

[tulc]

Just in case anyone wants to know the Gay Christian Agenda...it's JESUS

As it should be for all of us!
tulc(hey Chalice!)

 

[MercyBurst]

hmmm that must be quite a list by now, is it getting hard to post in here with all those people on ignore?
tulc(never understood what use an ignore list is on a debate forum)

The ignore list gets rid of the noise.

 

[MercyBurst]

Just in case anyone wants to know the Gay Christian Agenda...it's JESUS

The gay version of Jesus doesn't ask for our repentance -- unlike the Jesus in the Bible.

 

[tulc]

The ignore list gets rid of the noise.

But...isn't the "noise" the people you want to reach?
tulc(not looking for a fight, actually just trying to understand)

 

[MercyBurst]

But...isn't the "noise" the people you want to reach?

noise doesn't listen.

 

[marksman315]

The 'logic' of this is that - regardless of what the WORDS in a book say - people ARE sexually attracted to one another regardless of their gender. How can one's innate feelings be a sin, for goodness sake? Sexual practices may well be viewed by God as being a 'sin' outside a committed relationship. This is why any number of 'gay' people these days are opting for marriage which is a public display of commitment. 'Gay' males have no sexual interest in females. 'Gay' females have no interest in males. So, who has the authority to tell them who they SHOULD be sexually attracted to? THAT is illogical.

Homosexuality is just the way it is and we need to recognize this and stop vilifying fellow human beings for what is basically a non-issue.

* It should be noted that any number of professed heterosexual Christians have had sexual relations before marriage. Promiscuity (sex outside of marriage) is not a homosexual issue.

It seems that you are the authority in your life and not God. God has the authority to tell people who they should be attracted to. I have a lot of sympathy for people who (by nature, not by choice) are attracted to the same sex. If I was in their position, I don't think I could do anything about it either. However, as a Christian, I don't understand how homosexual pastors can preach a doctrine (or live the doctrine) that is against God. The people they mislead will be upon their heads in final judgement, and it is very sad that so many are being led astray.

 

[catlover]

...

 

[catlover]

Ah ha! Wonder no more.

In any case, you're the one who announced "I have a whole blog on the subject," opening the door to the subject of your preoccupation with homosexuality. The fact that you "have a whole blog on the subject" is no more germane to the issue marksman315 raised than is my follow up on your bragging. A simple "consider the following observations" would have sufficed. If you don't want people commenting on your remarks I suggest you don't make them.

someone hit a nerve

 

[tulc]

noise doesn't listen.

As you will. I've found noise listens if you stop looking at it as "noise" and realize that it's people talking.
tulc(posting in a discussion forum and not being able to see the posts of the people who want to discuss seems a little...futile)