Longed to Gather Them, Really?

[gmm4j]

Oh, so they (all the children) were effectively drawn? I couldn't resist.

 

[gmm4j]

Longed to Gather Them, Really?
Luke 19:41
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Of course they weren’t willing. How could they be? The Spirit had not regenerated them.
If the "unwilling" were the leaders not letting the "children" go to Christ, they must have been effective in their efforts for it caused Jesus to weep and express how He often longed to gather them. Why didn't override the unwillingness of the leaders and cause Jerusalem's children to be gathered to Him?

Why would Jesus weep over and long for something the Father had not willed? It was within God’s power, and His power alone (monergism), to change the unwilling to become willing and let the "children" be gathered. Fallen, depraved unregenerate men could not help but reject the prophets and be unwilling to come to Jesus or let the "children" be gathered to Him. It seems according to Calvinism, He (the Spirit) could have made them willing, however, He opted not to do so (according to the good pleasure of the Father). Jesus should have known this. So again, why did Jesus weep over something He (Godhead) alone could change, and if He really longed to gather them, wouldn’t the Spirit have irresistibly drawn them?

 

[gmm4j]

Anyone?

 

[gmm4j]

Why would Jesus weep over and long for something the Father had not willed? It was within God’s power, and His power alone (monergism), to change the unwilling to become willing and let the "children" be gathered. Fallen, depraved unregenerate men could not help but reject the prophets and be unwilling to come to Jesus or let the "children" be gathered to Him.

 

[ronathanedwards]

This is one of the more embarrassing passages that Arminians bring up. It's not even a salvation passage but a condemnation passage upon Jerusalem leader's and the consequences (destruction of the city).

Most Arminians out of tradition MOST of the time even misquote the Matt. passage by completely forgetting "your children"... it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad...

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

This is one of the more embarrassing passages that Arminians bring up. It's not even a salvation passage but a condemnation passage upon Jerusalem leader's and the consequences (destruction of the city).

Most Arminians out of tradition MOST of the time even misquote the Matt. passage by completely forgetting "your children"... it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad...

There is nothing embarrassing about this passage. Why would anyone think so? Here is the passage with 'your children' included.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

What I have yet to hear is that whoever 'you were not willing' is, some one, in some way, were not willing (thel&#333. That is they didn't have in mind, did not intend, were not determined, did not purpose, did not desire, did not love, and did not take delight to be gathered. In other words, it was their will to not be gathered.

They were not willing, even after Jesus said He wanted (thel&#333 to gather them. That word for 'wanted' is the same word used for 'not willing'. It was Jesus' will to gather Jerusalem's children, but it was "whoever's" will that prevented, or thwarted it.

 

[ronathanedwards]

Did you read the previous posts? What Jesus desired was to gather YOUR (the pharisees) children (their followers) SO.... Jesus wanted to gather the pharisees children.... BUT .. who were not willing? Their children? NO! The pharisees! It doesn't say that Jesus was wanting to gather the pharisees and "pharisees" were not willing, which is what you are trying to make it say...

You might want to try to read some in depth commentaries outside of your tradition sometime, you'll actually see there is a MUCH more deeper and clearer theological understanding of God's Word out there.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Did you read the previous posts? What Jesus desired was to gather YOUR (the pharisees) children (their followers) SO.... Jesus wanted to gather the pharisees children.... BUT .. who were not willing? Their children? NO! The pharisees! It doesn't say that Jesus was wanting to gather the pharisees and "pharisees" were not willing, which is what you are trying to make it say...

You might want to try to read some in depth commentaries outside of your tradition sometime, you'll actually see there is a MUCH more deeper and clearer theological understanding of God's Word out there.

What do you say of Jesus' will to gather them, but, their wills overruled, nullified, suspended, disregarded, thwarted, set aside, and prevented this will of Jesus?

 

[ronathanedwards]

Again you didn't read the thread did you. This was already rebutted. AGAIN, this isn't even about salvation, it is a prophetic JUDGEMENT passage on Israel's leaders, with the condemnation being the destruction of the house of God. Sound familiar? Could you say JEREMIAH? The WEEPING prophet, where God told him to command them to repent, yet God told him that they would not listen to him BEFORE God gave him the commands?

Also in the post it was explained about Jesus' humanity, he willed things that were, in complete humility, different from the fathers, once revealed, Jesus conformed to the father's will. "NOT my will, BUT yours be done".

Therefore, using this passage as a proof text for "free-will" or "resistible grace" is just reading this out of their tradition and not reading the text for what is is about, condemnation not salvation.

You should really read some books other than those that support your view, you might learn something.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Again you didn't read the thread did you.

I thought we were reading Little Red Riding Hood. My bad. Of course, I read the thread.

This was already rebutted. AGAIN, this isn't even about salvation, it is a prophetic JUDGEMENT passage on Israel's leaders, with the condemnation being the destruction of the house of God. Sound familiar? Could you say JEREMIAH? The WEEPING prophet, where God told him to command them to repent, yet God told him that they would not listen to him BEFORE God gave him the commands?

You say Jesus wanted to gather the Pharisee's children, but I read it was Jerusalem's children. If you want to make the Pharisee's children, you may.

Anyway you put it, someone thwarted God's will in gathering them.

Also in the post it was explained about Jesus' humanity, he willed things that were, in complete humility, different from the fathers, once revealed, Jesus conformed to the father's will. "NOT my will, BUT yours be done".

Since it was not Jesus' will but the Father's, then Jesus' will to gather must have been the Father's will. You say Jesus' will was different from the Father's, then in the next statement, you say, 'not my will, but yours'. How can Jesus' will be different if it was not His will, but the Father's?

Therefore, using this passage as a proof text for "free-will" or "resistible grace" is just reading this out of their tradition and not reading the text for what is is about, condemnation not salvation.

How is one saved if they are not gathered? Isn't condemnation also about salvation? Are condemned people saved?

You should really read some books other than those that support your view, you might learn something.

I learn by asking, seeking, and knocking. Reading books is good, but they must conform to the truths one learns by asking, seeking, and knocking.

 

[ronathanedwards]

Anyway you put it, someone thwarted God's will in gathering them.

declaring the end from the beginning ... I will accomplish all my purpose,
Is 46:10.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
Is 46:11

I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Job 42:2.

Anyway you put, you are wrong and God is right.

Since it was not Jesus' will but the Father's, then Jesus' will to gather must have been the Father's will. You say Jesus' will was different from the Father's, then in the next statement, you say, 'not my will, but yours'. How can Jesus' will be different if it was not His will, but the Father's?

Sorry that my trying to be concise confused you.
It was Jesus' desiring to gather, but the fathers ultimate will that they would not. My statement "not my will but yours be done" is a statement of Jesus in the garden. It describes Jesus' desiring to let the cup pass, but bowing to the father's will. The father's will was not thwarted by man, and Jesus' will was not thwarted, but Jesus' will conformed in perfect harmony to the fathers.

How is one saved if they are not gathered? Isn't condemnation also about salvation? Are condemned people saved?

You might want to look at the prophets and understand their purpose, specifically in covenant. One is to warn of the breaking of the covenant and to conform to the sovereign king, the other is to proclaim judgement for breaking of the covenant. Jesus in Matt 23 is proclaiming judgement on the leaders of Israel.

I learn by asking, seeking, and knocking. Reading books is good, but they must conform to the truths one learns by asking, seeking, and knocking

You can greatly be mistaken by asking, seeking, and knocking only according to your own bias. And who is the arbiter to what conforms to the truth? One seems right until another cross examines. You might want to get your nose out of asking Dave Hunt, and Geisler; and start knocking on Augustine,John Owens, Johnathan Edwards, Luther, Calvin, Gill, Sproul, Piper and Spurgeon's door.

In order to LEARN and make an educated decision, you must study both views intently. If all you do is study the view you think is "true" then you are not learning but just solidifying your bias, and deceiving yourself that you know truth.

.... But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.
2 Co 10:12.