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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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sdowney717

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Hello all.

Free will is a philosophical term, not a term found within the scripture and for a
very good reason.

Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

All people are by nature disobedient, not only are we deeply disobedient, we are
also blind and stupid.

The great lesson that we should have all learned from the nation of Israel, is that
left to our own sense of right and wrong behavior. We will choose to be disobedient,
in fact, we cannot help ourselves, we are all given over to the darker side of our nature.
That is what the text above is telling us.

Isreal was destined to fail, there was never any other possibility available to that nation.
God told Moses that Israel would fail to obey the law.

Further, no person would ever choose the Christ through an act of their own free will. I have
no doubt whatsoever, that to consider that a person would choose the right path of their own
volition, is utter heresy.

Rather folks, we would in a sense happily crucify the Christ all over again.

The Law itself does not exist for good and wholesome free will agents. Law was instituted
by God to the nation of Israel, to prove this point to mankind, that mankind is selfish and
evil at all points on the line. We are not good by nature, we do not love God, we much
prefer the golden calf on any day of the week. Let's be honest with each other on this matter.

Please refrain from the usage of the philosophical term, free will, it is erroneous to even consider
this concept. The term free will is an idealistic concept, not a term that has any merit in the
world of Christianity. The concept of a free will by man, was introduced into Christianity, it does
not exist within the pages of the scripture.

Without the intrusion of God's Son into time and space, no one could ever be saved.

No one ever chose to follow the Christ by an act of free will, that is ridiculous.

God acts in the first instance at all levels of His creation, and through our regeneration,
this reconciliation is empowered by God alone at all times. If we were able to exercise
an act of free will regarding this acceptance of the Christ. Then the heavens would be
filled with our profound boasting.

Find another term to use, please do not use this artificial term anymore. How about
the much softer term 'choice', at least with this term we do not corrupt the revelation
of the Christ.

Yes this idea of free will is overrated by so many people. We are bound to our natures and choose from within our experience. Without being regenerated we not able to choose to do good, we are by nature children of wrath.

A good word study in the NT is to look up chose, chosen, choice. And see what comes up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NKJV&quicksearch=chose&begin=47&end=73

Most result have to do with the Lord choosing us. The few where a person chooses something, has nothing to do with them choosing to believe in Christ.
 
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I don't know how the microwave works, Hammster.
The Scriptures say faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23). This would include the Living Word; And it would also include the Written Word, too (See 1 Peter 1:24-25).


...
 
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Yes this idea of free will is overrated by so many people. We are bound to our natures and choose from within our experience. Without being regenerated we not able to choose to do good, we are by nature children of wrath.

A good word study in the NT is to look up chose, chosen, choice. And see what comes up.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NKJV&quicksearch=chose&begin=47&end=73

Most result have to do with the Lord choosing us. The few where a person chooses something, has nothing to do with them choosing to believe in Christ.
No way.

Again, Matthew 13:15 says this,

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them"


...
 
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sdowney717

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The Scriptures say faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23). This would include the Living Word; And it would also include the Written Word, too (See 1 Peter 1:24-25).


...
Hearing God speak is a requirement for sure.
But having the ability to hear, that is a gift from God, and not all have that ability.

For example
Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.
 
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Hammster

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Doesn't matter if they are dead or not. All believers in the New Testament are of the same body of Christ. It is one church and not many churches in Jesus. It would be silly to suggest that this chapter was not written for the believer today and that they could not apply it to their life, as well.


....
Then why seven letters and the epistles?
 
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Hammster

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The Scriptures say faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23). This would include the Living Word; And it would also include the Written Word, too (See 1 Peter 1:24-25).


...
So everyone who hears the gospel has faith?
 
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Hello all.

Free will is a philosophical term, not a term found within the scripture and for a
very good reason.

Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

All people are by nature disobedient, not only are we deeply disobedient, we are
also blind and stupid.

The great lesson that we should have all learned from the nation of Israel, is that
left to our own sense of right and wrong behavior. We will choose to be disobedient,
in fact, we cannot help ourselves, we are all given over to the darker side of our nature.
That is what the text above is telling us.

Isreal was destined to fail, there was never any other possibility available to that nation.
God told Moses that Israel would fail to obey the law.

Further, no person would ever choose the Christ through an act of their own free will. I have
no doubt whatsoever, that to consider that a person would choose the right path of their own
volition, is utter heresy.

Rather folks, we would in a sense happily crucify the Christ all over again.

The Law itself does not exist for good and wholesome free will agents. Law was instituted
by God to the nation of Israel, to prove this point to mankind, that mankind is selfish and
evil at all points on the line. We are not good by nature, we do not love God, we much
prefer the golden calf on any day of the week. Let's be honest with each other on this matter.

Please refrain from the usage of the philosophical term, free will, it is erroneous to even consider
this concept. The term free will is an idealistic concept, not a term that has any merit in the
world of Christianity. The concept of a free will by man, was introduced into Christianity, it does
not exist within the pages of the scripture.

Without the intrusion of God's Son into time and space, no one could ever be saved.

No one ever chose to follow the Christ by an act of free will, that is ridiculous.

God acts in the first instance at all levels of His creation, and through our regeneration,
this reconciliation is empowered by God alone at all times. If we were able to exercise
an act of free will regarding this acceptance of the Christ. Then the heavens would be
filled with our profound boasting.

Find another term to use, please do not use this artificial term anymore. How about
the much softer term 'choice', at least with this term we do not corrupt the revelation
of the Christ.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take. If you choose the red pill, it will lead you into seeking the truth. If you choose the blue pill, you can believe, whatever you want to believe.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."


...
 
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sdowney717

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Matthew 13:23
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

To hear the word Christ speaks of with understanding, means you have ears to hear and mind to understand given to you by God. It is only them which bear fruit and are saved.
Again Christ says

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
 
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So everyone who hears the gospel has faith?
I am talking about those who have faith of their own free will choice. They have to believe and receive the seed of the Word into their heart. If they do not believe, the wicked one comes and takes it out of their heart so it cannot take root.


....
 
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Marvin Knox

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................. God gave them a little help by regenerating them so that they could choose God? I know what you said before, but I just want to be clear on what you believe.
More than "a little help". They simply could not and would not without His special grace in making the "inward call".

Registration is a hotly disputed concept. Some see it as an instantaneous thing. Others see it as more of a process. I have no problem with it being one or the other in certain people.

I believe that we are spiritually dead in the natural fallen nature. I believe that to be made alive is to have our spirits united in some way with the Holy Spirit. That is regeneration IMO.

Without that happening - I don't see how anyone can say that Jesus is Lord and mean it from the Heart.

Some (perhaps you) believe that all spiritually dead men are capable of calling Jesus Lord. I'm quite certain that that is not scriptural. Some (apparently you as well) seem to teach that spiritually dead men say Jesus is Lord and are rewarded for being the exception to the rule stated in the Word of God with having their spirits reunited with the Holy Spirit of God.

That seems to me to be not only unscriptural. It seem downright silly. But then that's my not so humble opinion.:)
So are you saying that God knew who was going to believe of their own free will choice
God knows and always has known all thing actual and all things possible. That includes what men will do in all circumstances. That is the basis for believing in predestination. It is impossible that anything that God knows for sure will happen will not happen.

But to actually happen those exact circumstances have to be created by God through His providential creation and control of all things. Leave out or change one small thing and those exact circumstances will not happen. Indeed that person may not even exist or may die before making the choice we are talking about in this instance.

It is for this reason that only God can be the one who predestines things. He is in control of all that happens as has always been the case and always will be the case.

Predestination and free will are never in conflict. It doesn't matter how often detractors cry "robot" or "puppet". It is still true that God uses the choices of men to bring about only what He has predestined to happen.

It's not a case of either or. God knows what you will choose. But He still is the one who predestinated what you choose.

Big subject - small space.:)
I am not in disagreement with the regeneration and the new nature given to us by God AFTER we submit to him of our own free will (as a part of God drawing us). But this would not make me a Calvinist for believing such a thing, though.

But the different natures does not have anything to do with Calvinism because we get to choose Christ of our own free will (Which then moves us from one nature to the other). ...
I do not believe in the idea that natural men can understand Spiritual truth and come to God through accepting the provisions of the gospel message by themselves. That is not scriptural IMO.

I do not believe in the idea that natural man is rewarded with spiritual life after they submit to God by repenting and taking the gospel message to heart.

If that were true - one might well say - "Thank you Lord. I'll take the new nature as a gift from you so that I can understand the mind of God and respond to you. But you have to admit Lord that I did pretty good without spiritual life."

I don't believe that that is how it works. Most evangelicals do. The reason they cling to that idea so tenaciously is IMO because they feel that it would be unfair of God to regenerate some sinners who stand under the wrath of God and not do the same for others.

They are IMO wrong. Salvation is by grace and is undeserved.

P.S. None of these concepts are a part of the gospel presentation that we preach to the world. No one would go into these ideas except intramurally with other Christians. That includes even the most hard line hyper Calvinist - I would think.
 
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klutedavid

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Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take. If you choose the red pill, it will lead you into seeking the truth. If you choose the blue pill, you can believe, whatever you want to believe.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."


...
Hello Jason.

Thanks for your reply.

Free will is a philosophical term.

You may have a choice to make at times, but you are never, purely free to
ever choose the Christ. The Holy Spirit must intervene at every stage of
your conversion and throughout your life. Lest you proceed, other than by
the Grace of our Lord.
 
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Matthew 13:23
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

To hear the word Christ speaks of with understanding, means you have ears to hear and mind to understand given to you by God. It is only them which bear fruit and are saved.
Again Christ says

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Again, you are ignoring Matthew 13:15 in what it says. How can a person change from having dull hearing or change in having eyes that are closed? According to verse 15 it says they can change this if they shall see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart.


...
 
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Hammster

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I am talking about those who have faith of thier own free will choice. They have to believe and receive the seed of the Word into their heart. If they do not believe, the wicked one comes and takes it out of their heart so it cannto take root.


....
So now you're denying that faith comes by hearing, and you're saying that everyone has faith.
 
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Hammster

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Again, you are ignoring Matthew 13:15 in what it says. How can a person change from having dull hearing or change in having eyes that are closed? According to verse 15 it says they can change this if they shall see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart.


...
It doesn't say that in the verse.
 
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More than "a little help". They simply could not and would not without His special grace in making the "inward call".

Registration is a hotly disputed concept. Some see it as an instantaneous thing. Others see it as more of a process. I have no problem with it being one or the other in certain people.

I believe that we are spiritually dead in the natural fallen nature. I believe that to be made alive is to have our spirits united in some way with the Holy Spirit. That is regeneration IMO.

Without that happening - I don't see how anyone can say that Jesus is Lord and mean it from the Heart.

Some (perhaps you) believe that all spiritually dead men are capable of calling Jesus Lord. I'm quite certain that that is not scriptural. Some (apparently you as well) seem teach that spiritually dead men say Jesus is Lord and are rewarded for being the exception to the rule stated in the Word of God with having their spirits reunited with the Holy Spirit of God.

That seems to me to be not only unscriptural. It seem downright silly. But then that's my not so humble opinion.:)

God knows and always has known all thing actual and all things possible. That includes what men will do in all circumstances. That is the basis for believing in predestination. It is impossible that anything that God knows for sure will happen will not happen.

But to actually happen those exact circumstances have to be created by God through His providential creation and control of all things. One leave out or change one small thing and those exact circumstances will not happen. Indeed that person may not even exist or may die before making the choice we are talking about in this instance.

It is for this reason that only God can be the one who predestines things. He is in control of all that happens as has always been the case and always will be the case.

Predestination and free will are never in conflict. It doesn't matter how often detractors cry "robot" or "puppet". It is still true that God uses the choices of men to bring about only what He has predestined to happen.

It's not a case of either or. God knows what you will choose. But He still is the one who predestinated what you choose.

Big subject - small space.:)

I do not believe that the idea that natural men can understand Spiritual truth and come to God through accepting the provisions of the gospel message by themselves. That is not scriptural IMO.

I do not believe that natural man is rewarded with spiritual life after they submit to God by repenting and taking the gospel message to heart.

If that were true - one might well say - "Thank you Lord. I'll take the new nature as a gift from you so that I can understand the mind of God and respond to you. But you have to admit Lord that I did pretty good without spiritual life."

I don't believe that that is how it works. Most evangelicals do. The reason they cling to that idea so tenaciously is IMO because they feel that it would be unfair of God to regenerate some sinners who stand under the wrath of God and not do the same for others.

They are IMO wrong. Salvation is by grace and is undeserved.

P.S. None of these concepts are a part of the gospel presentation that we preach to the world. No one would go into these ideas except intramurally with other Christians. That includes even the most hard line hyper Calvinist - I would think.

I do not see God revealing a truth to someone as regeneration. God revealed truth to a pagan Pharoah about Sarai. It did not take a regeneration. God can reveal the truth to a person by His Spirit and it is up to the person to decide on whether or not they want to submit to God. The Lord can even temporarily dwell within people and it does not mean that those individuals are saved. For example: Saul and his messengers who had sought after David had prophesied by God overtaking them (1 Samuel 19:20-24).

If a person is totally depraved and unable to come to God, then that means man has no free will to come to God and God is the One who must regenerate a person so as to believe. Which would mean man is off the hook in his decision in accepting or rejecting Christ in this life.

A regeneration is simply a change of one's spirit by the Holy Spirit. They receive a new nature by God. Regeneration is not God drawing a person to believe and regeneration is not awakening of some truth to a person. A person can reject God's drawing and a person can reject God's truth.

Regeneration is something that comes as a result of a person seeking forgiveness with God and in desiring to live a changed new life in Christ.


...
 
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It doesn't say that in the verse.
I disagree. That is what the verse says if you were to break it a part into pieces and truly examine it word for word.


...
 
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Hammster

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I disagree. That is what the verse says if you were to break it a part into pieces and truly examine it word for word.


...
It's not what it says if you take it as a whole and I context. But at least I understand a bit how you come to your conclusions.
 
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So now you're denying that faith comes by hearing, and you're saying that everyone has faith.
That is just ridiculous. I am saying the HEARING is where they actually HEAR with their ears, SEE with their eyes, and UNDERSTAND with their heart whereby the receive the seed of the Word into their heart. In other words, the hearing here is synomous with BELIEF in God's Word. Many times those who came to the faith had it preached to them. So they heard the message of God's Word and then believed (Thereby their faith came by hearing the Word of God). The context here is talking about faith in God's Word by hearing it and it is not talking about unbelief in hearing God's Word.

...
 
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It's not what it says if you take it as a whole and I context. But at least I understand a bit how you come to your conclusions.
Give me a word by word commentary on the text. Then give me the context.


...
 
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sdowney717

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I do not see God revealing a truth to someone as regeneration. God revealed truth to a pagan Pharoah about Sarai. It did not take a regeneration. God can reveal the truth to a person by His Spirit and it is up to the person to decide on whether or not they want to submit to God. The Lord can even temporarily dwell within people and it does not mean that those individuals are saved. For example: Saul and his messengers who had sought after David had prophesied by God overtaking them (1 Samuel 19:20-24).

If a person is totally depraved and unable to come to God, then that means man has no free will to come to God and God is the One who must regenerate a person so as to believe. Which would mean man is off the hook in his decision in accepting or rejecting Christ in this life.

A regeneration is simply a change of one's spirit by the Holy Spirit. They receive a new nature by God. Regeneration is not God drawing a person to believe and regeneration is not awakening of some truth to a person. A person can reject God's drawing and a person can reject God's truth.


...
Are we not talking though about those who will inherit the promises of God as saved persons who believe in Christ?
Regeneration is part of the process in a person's life that sets them on the road to justification by faith. the true beginning from God's pov, is that those He foreknew in love , he predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. To be conformed in that way means to be glorified.
All those whom He foreknew, He predestined. Before they existed, God knew them intimately.
Truth is all of their days and all of their ways are designed by the Creator beforehand.
To the saved this should be of a great comfort, it takes out the lie of someone losing their salvation.

Psalm 139
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
 
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