Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

I'll be clear. God never forces anyone to believe.

But you are still not answering all my questions. It is as if you are deliberately trying to avoid in telling me what you actually believe. But I am not surprised because your belief does not make any sense. How so?

Well, you said God does not force people to believe. So then how does God do it then? You know. How does God regenerate man who is unable to choose God because he is depraved? If man does not choose God, then there must be something in man that is potentially good that God sees for God to choose them, right? Then this would mean God is choosing people based on how they would respond to Him, right? If that is the case, then ultimately it is man's choice that God is choosing them so as to regenerate them to believe and be good. But good does not just pop up out of nowhere. The good in the individual had to originate with the person at it's core unless you believe God planted it there and thereby forced some-one to believe against their own depraved will. So it comes down to the fact that there IS something in man that is good enough for him to choose Jesus Christ. If not, the other alternative is that God does the choosing for them and forces His salvation upon a person.


...

 

[sdowney717]

But you are still not answering all my questions. It is as if you are deliberately trying to avoid in telling me what you actually believe. But I am not surprised because your belief does not make any sense. How so?

Well, you said God does not force people to believe. So then how does God do it then? You know. How does God regenerate man who is unable to choose God because he is depraved? If man does not choose God, then there must be something in man that is potentially good that God sees for God to choose them, right? Then this would mean God is choosing people based on how they would respond to Him, right? If that is the case, then ultimately it is man's choice that God is choosing them so as to regenerate them to believe and be good. But good does not just pop up out of nowhere. The good in the individual had to originate with the person at it's core unless you believe God planted it there and thereby forced some-one to believe against their own depraved will. So it comes down to the fact that there IS something in man that is good enough for him to choose Jesus Christ. If not, the other alternative is that God does the choosing for them and forces His salvation upon a person.


...

But scripturally no where does it say man is good or man chooses God, it says the opposite.

Scripturally though it does say man is evil, does not come to the light, does not choose God. And scripturally it says God chooses man. To say God looks down some future path picking those who picked God first is not scriptural, it is a fairy tale.

 

[Hammster]

But you are still not answering all my questions. It is as if you are deliberately trying to avoid in telling me what you actually believe. But I am not surprised because your belief does not make any sense. How so?

I'm not avoiding. It's just that the longer posts don't seem to get through, so I'm trying keep it simple for your sake.

God doesn't force people. He just gives them a new heart, like it's spelled out in Ezekiel 11. That's regeneration. If you look at Titus 2, you'll see that regeneration actually does something. And you'll see that being regenerated has nothing to do with out will.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Classic Calvinism,does not deny free-will.Sinners can choose whom to serve.But as sinners we already serve Satan and Sin.Sinners do this willingly,nobody is forcing them to sin.Sinners by nature are sinful;meaning that they choose what they crave for,desire for,pleasure for.Read this and tell me what you think about it.

So you believe you have free will to choose either God or Satan as a sinner? Then you are not a Calvinist. Calvinists on some level deny that man cannot come to God without some kind of regeneration. That man is depraved and unable to do anything to seek God without a change of heart. That is Calvinism. If that is not what you think Calvinism is, then please explain to me where man's free will choice does not play a part in coming to the Lord in some way.

Please take note that I believe our nature before the cross is sinful due to Adam's transgression, but I do not believe that man is completely depraved and cannot choose Jesus Christ, though. I believe God has left a person's free will intact so as to choose which master they want to serve (i.e. they have enough good in them to "choose God"). But man cannot do any good or righteousness beyond choosing who His master is. When it comes to having a new nature and doing that which is truly good, that is all the Lord's doing. For it is God that changes us spiritually when we submit to Him of our own free will; And it is Christ (God) that does the good work thru us. But a believer must continually CHOOSE Jesus every day, though. Their free will is still intact after they accept Jesus Christ. They still have to endure in their faith to the End. Their new nature does not over ride their intial decision in which master they want to serve.

Ephesians 2

By Grace Through Faith
2 and the mind, and 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This passage in Ephesians is talking about initial salvation. It is telling us how salvation is a free gift and it can be received right here and right now by believing Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. It can also involve the Sinner's Prayer, as well (See Parable of the Tax Collector, and the confessing of sins at John's baptism in Mark 1:4-5). In other words, the believer does not have to jump thru a bunch of hoops and do a bunch of man directed works in order to initially receive God's grace and forgiveness. This gift can be received for free by God by believing or by faith. This gift is a person named Jesus Christ who is the source of their eternal life. From there it is a walk and a relationship with Jesus Christ (Whereby Jesus does the GOOD work in them). Hence, why verse 10 says we are created IN Christ Jesus for GOOD works (i.e. God directed works and not man directed works).

This passage is not saying that God is taking away your choice in some way in choosing Him.


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[Bible Highlighter]

But scripturally no where does it say man is good or man chooses God, it says the opposite.

Scripturally though it does say man is evil, does not come to the light, does not choose God. And scripturally it says God chooses man. To say God looks down some future path picking those who picked God first is not scriptural, it is a fairy tale.

So you believe God forces or makes some to be believers and God forces or makes others to be unbelievers, right?


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[sdowney717]

So you believe God forces or makes some to be believers and God forces or makes others to be unbelievers, right?
....

Why do you call this being forced?
If God regenerates someone to have a clean new heart and spirit is that forcing?
They are not forced to believe, like that is against their will, and neither does God force people not to believe.

 

[Hammster]

In general, Calvinists believe that everyone can to follow God. But we believe that, as unregenerate folks, we are enemies of God and want nothing to do with Him by choice. Our nature is that of children of wrath. It will take something supernatural to change us.

It's not so much, can we believe? It's more like, why would we?

 

[Hammster]

So you believe God forces or makes some to be believers and God forces or makes others to be unbelievers, right?


....

Can you show where anyone says God forces people to believe? You keep leveling that accusation. If cannot show where it's been said, then it's nothing but a straw man.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not avoiding. It's just that the longer posts don't seem to get through, so I'm trying keep it simple for your sake.

God doesn't force people. He just gives them a new heart, like it's spelled out in Ezekiel 11. That's regeneration. If you look at Titus 2, you'll see that regeneration actually does something. And you'll see that being regenerated has nothing to do with out will.

I am not against God giving us a new heart and a new nature or a spiritual regeneration. But this change of heart was not forced upon me. I had to CHOOSE Jesus in order to get this new nature. If not then this new nature was FORCED upon me or I was DESIGNED specifically or by random to have this new nature (Which would mean I had no choice in the matter; Hence, salvation was out of my hands. It was just the way I was created. I was FORCED or DESIGNED automatically to be a certain way.).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can you show where anyone says God forces people to believe? You keep leveling that accusation. If cannot show where it's been said, then it's nothing but a straw man.

I am referring to Hyper Calvinism. But I believe this teaching bleeds out to the other versions. Calvinism at it's root core is denying man's cooperation with God on some level. Therein lies the problem. I do not think you should call yourself a Calvinist if you believe YOU CHOOSE God. The whole argument that one is depraved and unable to come to God is the core of what Calvinism is. FREE WILL is what God has given to man for Him to choose God.


...

 

[sdowney717]

I am not against God giving us a new heart and a new nature or a spiritual regeneration. But this change of heart was not forced upon me. I had to CHOOSE Jesus in order to get this new nature. If not then this new nature was FORCED upon me or I was DESIGNED specifically or by random to have this new nature (Which would mean I had no choice in the matter; Hence, salvation was out of my hands. It was just the way I was created. I was FORCED or DESIGNED automatically to be a certain way.).


...

Actually how do you know that you were not inwardly changed before you chose to believe in Jesus?
You can not say can you.

Romans 10 says from the heart man believes unto righteousness.
However without having the new heart from God, how can it do anything good?
How can it understand?
There are none that do good. All are gone astray. There are zero people who understand, no one seeks after God. No one seeks after Christ, all look to their own interests, not the things which are of Christ.

Romans 3 describes the unregenerated heart.
10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But scripturally no where does it say man is good or man chooses God, it says the opposite.

Scripturally though it does say man is evil, does not come to the light, does not choose God. And scripturally it says God chooses man. To say God looks down some future path picking those who picked God first is not scriptural, it is a fairy tale.

Actually, Scriptures do actually say that we choose God. I have already provided a passage in Post # 687.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-35#post-68995541

And verses in Post # 711

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-36#post-68997157

In addition, look at Genesis 4:7. God essentially tells Cain that he had a free will choice to choose either good or evil.
Furthermore, look at Deuteronomy 30:19 says God sets before the Israelites death and life and God desires us to CHOOSE life.

Jesus even tells people to "repent." This would be meaningless non-sense to tell someone to repent if they were just going to automatically do so anyways on a part of some kind of regeneration.

Jesus says, COME to me all you who are weary and carry heavy burdens. Why would Jesus tell us to "Come" to Him if they were going to automatically come to God anyways as a part of some kind of regeneration?


...

 

[Hammster]

I am not against God giving us a new heart and a new nature or a spiritual regeneration. But this change of heart was not forced upon me. I had to CHOOSE Jesus in order to get this new nature. If not then this new nature was FORCED upon me or I was DESIGNED specifically or by random to have this new nature (Which would mean I had no choice in the matter; Hence, salvation was out of my hands. It was just the way I was created. I was FORCED or DESIGNED automatically to be a certain way.).


...

So what benefit is there to a new heart? What can a believer do that an unbeliever cannot?

 

[sdowney717]

Actually, Scriptures does say we choose God. I have already provided a passage in Post # 687.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-35#post-68995541

And verses in Post # 711

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-36#post-68997157

In addition, look at Genesis 4:7. God essentially tells Cain that he had a free will choice to choose either good or evil.
Furthermore, look at Deuteronomy 30:19 says God sets before the Israelites death and life and God desires us to CHOOSE life.


...

Cain freely chose to do evil. Cain was not forced by God to be evil.
Cain it is testified of him, Cain was of the wicked one, meaning belonging to Satan. Cain could not help himself except to make evil choices according to his nature, which was that of a snake-serpent-scorpion-vulture-goat-wolf. From the inside comes out the evil of a man and that is shown by his works.

1 John 3
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

 

[roman2819]

Although I was aware there are some controversy about the words "God elect", I didn't know it was so misunderstood until I did a search on line for the word "predestination" . There were many websites explaining predestination; some said God predetermined who shall be saved; while others try to reconcile free will with pre-determinism halfway; yet others reject predeterminism but still remain puzzled at "chosen by God".

During biblical times,"God's elect" was really a way of writing that showed reverence to God. That was how they used words in a humble way, meaning that it was such a privilege to be part of God's kingdom. Being sinners who did not deserved any merit, it was only by grace that we could be redeemed because of Christ's sacrifice. Today, we say we make a decision to choose God, but back then they said God chose us (out of reverence and humility). Such connotations are not carried across in translation into today's language, hence the gap in understanding.

Predestined means to preplanned. The point is what did God pre-plan? He predestined to offer redemption to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. He offers to redeem, but people have to decide whether to accept or otherwise. As we know, after Peter's vision of unclean food, the gospel were preached to Gentiles and they were offered salvation to the same God. Annoyed, the Jews claimed they were more favored by God. But Paul refuted by saying "God does not show favoritism (Gal 2:6) to the circumcised. He explained that God had always predestined the Jews first, then the Gentiles who have been included as well (Ephesians 1:13). It means that He had always preplanned to offer redemption to both Jews and Gentiles, which mean everyone. He predestined to offer, NOT choose who to save.

 

[Hammster]

God does not zap us into His Kingdom. We are told by God in His Word to choose this day in whom we will serve.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"(Joshua 24:15).

We are also told in God's Word that there are those who choose not to fear of the Lord and his ways. We are also told by God in His Word to refuse the evil and to choose the good. We are told by God to choose that which pleases Him.

• (Proverbs 1:29)"...they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD."
  
  
• (Proverbs 3:31)"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."
  
  
• (Isaiah 7:15)"...know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."
  
  
• (Isaiah 56:4)"...choose the things that please Me, and take hold of My Covenant."

In other words, according to the verses above, it sounds like man has free will to choose God and His good ways.


...

Let's look at Joshua 24. Who did Joshua tell them to choose between?

 

[Hammster]

I am referring to Hyper Calvinism. But I believe this teaching bleeds out to the other versions. Calvinism at it's root core is denying man's cooperation with God on some level. Therein lies the problem. I do not think you should call yourself a Calvinist if you believe YOU CHOOSE God. The whole argument that one is depraved and unable to come to God is the core of what Calvinism is. FREE WILL is what God has given to man for Him to choose God.


...

I currently don't see any hyper-Calvinists around, though they show up every now and again. So stop with the straw man argument. Don't make us defend something we don't believe.

 

[sdowney717]

Although I was aware there are some controversy about the words "God elect", I didn't know it was so misunderstood until I did a search on line for the word "predestination" . There were many websites explaining predestination; some said God predetermined who shall be saved; while others try to reconcile free will with pre-determinism halfway; yet others reject predeterminism but still remain puzzled at "chosen by God".

During biblical times,"God's elect" was really a way of writing that showed reverence to God. That was how they used words in a humble way, meaning that it was such a privilege to be part of God's kingdom. Being sinners who did not deserved any merit, it was only by grace that we could be redeemed because of Christ's sacrifice. Today, we say we make a decision to choose God, but back then they said God chose us (out of reverence and humility). Such connotations are not carried across in translation into today's language, hence the gap in understanding.

Predestined means to preplanned. The point is what did God pre-plan? He predestined to offer redemption to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. He offers to redeem, but people have to decide whether to accept or otherwise. As we know, after Peter's vision of unclean food, the gospel were preached to Gentiles and they were offered salvation to the same God. Annoyed, the Jews claimed they were more favored by God. But Paul refuted by saying "God does not show favoritism (Gal 2:6) to the circumcised. He explained that God had always predestined the Jews first, then the Gentiles who have been included as well (Ephesians 1:13). It means that He had always preplanned to offer redemption to both Jews and Gentiles, which mean everyone. He predestined to offer, NOT choose who to save.

However when you like at a verse which uses that word predestined, it is all an individual focus.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The individualness is shown in v28 and that continues to flow all the way through. Can you believe that. God foreknew the individuals that would make up His church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually how do you know that you were not inwardly changed before you chose to believe in Jesus?
You can not say can you.

Romans 10 says from the heart man believes unto righteousness.
However without having the new heart from God, how can it do anything good?
How can it understand?
There are none that do good. All are gone astray. There are zero people who understand, no one seeks after God. No one seeks after Christ, all look to their own interests, not the things which are of Christ.

Romans 3 describes the unregenerated heart.
10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

In Romans 3:11, Paul is referencing the heathen in Psalm 14:1-5. Paul's point of Romans 3 is that both the Jews and the Gentiles are both are on equal footing and in sin and can come to receive salvation and grace the same way by repenting and believing in Jesus Christ. However, Psalm 14 is not saying that all the heathens did not come to God, though. We know that Rahab joined God's people. We also know that the Ninevites had believed God by repenting at the preaching of Jonah. The point is that Psalm 14:1-5 is saying that the majority of the heathen did not follow God. Paul references this Old Testament text as a part of his argument in Romans 3. So Romans 3:11 cannot support the belief that it is talking about ALL people. For we clearly know that this is not the case according to the context that Paul was referencing.


...

 

[drstevej]

Here is a little parable I wrote to illustrate the Calvinist perspective on free will.

The "Liver & Onions Parable"
The Reformed Doctrine of Free Will

Suppose you detest L&O. The sight and smell makes you sick.



Just once, to appease a friend that insisted that L&O really is good tasting, you touched your tongue's tip to the L&O and the taste repulsed you.

You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some L&O. You refuse. He insists that the L&O is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"

You freely reject the L&O because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding L&O is predictable and certain.

SUCH is the unregenerate person's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.

===

Now suppose this L&O loather is supernaturally changed into a L&O lover.

God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of L&O! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.

He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. L&O has suddenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for L&O whenever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.

He freely and predictably chooses L&O after this craving has been placed upon him by God.

SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.

====

BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!

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