Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


I don't think a detailed explanation is necessary. Paul is saying that we shouldn't sin even though where sin increases, grace abounds even more. He lets us know we've died to sin. We've been crucified with Christ. So don't sin just because you've been justified.

Why would He go tell us that we have died to sin, in Christ. Have been buried to sin, in Christ. Explain to us in verse 7 that since we have died to sin, in Christ, that we also will live with Him? Live with Him, how? Why is it important for us to realize that we have died to sin and then the other half of the verse says we are alive in Christ? Why would this contrast be made? What is the purpose? In verse 11, why MUST we consider ourselves to have died to sin to be alive to God in Jesus Christ? Is this all some hokey-pokey words that are talking about sin increasing and grace abounding?

That is some theoretical roller-coaster than to tell us only that. It seems that we were also crucified with Christ to sin. Crucified, interesting word choice. How many crucifictions are in the Bible. Not a standard, do not sin guys to let grace come into play, wordage. CRUCIFY. TO DIE. KILL. To take the life from, dead. Not a natural death, an unnatural death by crucifiction. Hmmm.....

Could there be more here? Me thinks there is.

Unless of course, Paul just woke up on the wrong side of the bed or earth that morning and decided to be a drama queen and walk us through EXACTLY what Christ suffered for sin and says that WE do the SAME EXACT THING.

Maybe Paul was just being dramatic, explaining in his usual drama filled way how we are not to sin guys anymore. Cuz we got grace.

Paul, the drama, the drama

 

[Hammster]

Why would He go tell us that we have died to sin, in Christ. Have been buried to sin, in Christ. Explain to us in verse 7 that since we have died to sin, in Christ, that we also will live with Him? Live with Him, how? Why is it important for us to realize that we have died to sin and then the other half of the verse says we are alive in Christ? Why would this contrast be made? What is the purpose? In verse 11, why MUST we consider ourselves to have died to sin to be alive to God in Jesus Christ? Is this all some hokey-pokey words that are talking about sin increasing and grace abounding?

That is some theoretical roller-coaster than to tell us only that. It seems that we were also crucified with Christ to sin. Crucified, interesting word choice. How many crucifictions are in the Bible. Not a standard, do not sin guys to let grace come into play, wordage. CRUCIFY. TO DIE. KILL. To take the life from, dead. Not a natural death, an unnatural death by crucifiction. Hmmm.....

Could there be more here? Me thinks there is.

Are you wanting me to answer, or did you just use my post as a springboard to post your views?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you wanting me to answer, or did you just use my post as a springboard to post your views?

I want you to answer.

If I post my views I use statements.

Many of these are questions, so please answer. I am really interested.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you wanting me to answer, or did you just use my post as a springboard to post your views?

If I really wanted to post my own views, I would start a thread doing so.

But I like people to think for themselves. I don't post my views just to preach. I'm not that type of person.

 

[Hammster]

I want you to answer.

If I post my views I use statements.

Many of these are questions, so please answer. I am really interested.

Then please post with questions. The additional commentary muddles your intent.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then please post with questions. The additional commentary muddles your intent.

There are questions in that post.

All of the questions, end with a ? That is the proper structure of asking a question.

 

[Hammster]

There are questions in that post.

All of the questions, end with a ? That is the proper structure of asking a question.

I'm not going to sort through the rest. Either repost, or not. It doesn't matter to me either way.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Just for you my furry friend.

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


I don't think a detailed explanation is necessary. Paul is saying that we shouldn't sin even though where sin increases, grace abounds even more. He lets us know we've died to sin. We've been crucified with Christ. So don't sin just because you've been justified.

Why would He go tell us that we have died to sin, in Christ. Have been buried to sin, in Christ. Explain to us in verse 7 that since we have died to sin, in Christ, that we also will live with Him? Live with Him, how? Why is it important for us to realize that we have died to sin and then the other half of the verse says we are alive in Christ? Why would this contrast be made? What is the purpose? In verse 11, why MUST we consider ourselves to have died to sin to be alive to God in Jesus Christ? Is this all some hokey-pokey words that are talking about sin increasing and grace abounding?

It seems that we were also crucified with Christ to sin. Crucified, interesting word choice. How many crucifictions are in the Bible. Not a standard, do not sin guys to let grace come into play, wordage. CRUCIFY. TO DIE. KILL. To take the life from, dead. Not a natural death, an unnatural death by crucifiction. Hmmm.....

Could there be more here?

 

[Hammster]

Just for you my furry friend.


Why would He go tell us that we have died to sin, in Christ. Have been buried to sin, in Christ. Explain to us in verse 7 that since we have died to sin, in Christ, that we also will live with Him? Live with Him, how? Why is it important for us to realize that we have died to sin and then the other half of the verse says we are alive in Christ? Why would this contrast be made? What is the purpose? In verse 11, why MUST we consider ourselves to have died to sin to be alive to God in Jesus Christ? Is this all some hokey-pokey words that are talking about sin increasing and grace abounding?

It seems that we were also crucified with Christ to sin. Crucified, interesting word choice. How many crucifictions are in the Bible. Not a standard, do not sin guys to let grace come into play, wordage. CRUCIFY. TO DIE. KILL. To take the life from, dead. Not a natural death, an unnatural death by crucifiction. Hmmm.....

Could there be more here?

I think I covered this in the post. I believe the argument he's addressing is that if grace increases when sin increases, then we should sin more so that there will be more grace. He letting them know that this is nonsense since we are so identified with Christ, it's as if we were crucified with Him (Gal 2:20). So that's why we consider ourselves dead to sin. It's because we have died with Him.

So this is all about our identity with Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think I covered this in the post. I believe the argument he's addressing is that if grace increases when sin increases, then we should sin more so that there will be more grace. He letting them know that this is nonsense since we are so identified with Christ, it's as if we were crucified with Him (Gal 2:20). So that's why we consider ourselves dead to sin. It's because we have died with Him.

So this is all about our identity with Christ.

So you do not believe that spiritually, when we are born-again that Christ takes us through His entire conquering of sin, so that we have also died spiritually to sin, with Him?

You believe that it is just something that is said so we can identify our identity with Christ?

I believe that we spiritually are born again by Jesus taking us through His conquering of sin, which is why we are dead to sin. Spiritually. Literally, dead to sin. It has NO hold on us and it can no longer spiritually pull us away from Christ. Because a man can only die once. Spiritually and physically.

That takes me back then to my previous post, that Paul was just being dramatic if it does not indeed happen that way with each believer.

So how can the inerrant Word of God say that if it does not indeed happen? Why would Paul walk us through everything that Jesus did to conquer sin and say that is what sin is to us now, in our being born-agaiin if it does not indeed happen?

THen the inerrancy of scripture becomes an issue. I am not seeking further clarification into what you said previously, I am asking how you reconcile it with being for identification purposes only when it says 'you have died to sin'. 'You have been crucified to sin'. 'You have been buried with Christ'.

It is statements. Telling us about who we are in Christ.

 

[klutedavid]

Good. Why do you think it's necessary?

Hello Hammster.

You asked, why does God need to supply us with Love through the indwelling
Holy Spirit. The answer is simply because mankind has a dysfunctional, selfish
nature. Man cannot love because mankind is self consumed.

Since man is unable to initiate a belief in Jesus Christ without God acting in
the first instance, and the scripture is very clear on this point. So then God must
reach out to humanity through time and space in the first instance, by convicting
the world of sin.

John 16
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness
and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

 

[sdowney717]

Hello Hammster.

You asked, why does God need to supply us with Love through the indwelling
Holy Spirit. The answer is simply because mankind has a dysfunctional, selfish
nature. Man cannot love because mankind is self consumed.

Since man is unable to initiate a belief in Jesus Christ without God acting in
the first instance, and the scripture is very clear on this point. So then God must
reach out to humanity through time and space in the first instance, by convicting
the world of sin.

John 16
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness
and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Not really what you're thinking. From a study bible is said
16:8 he will convict the world concerning sin. This is probably not a reference to the conviction that leads to repentance and salvation, but to the exposure of humanity’s inexcusable guilt. See “Illumination and Conviction” at 1 Cor. 2:10.

The world does not believe in Christ. However for those the Holy Spirit has shone into their hearts the light of the glory of Christ, they believe as 2 Corinthians 4 says

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Simply God has shone His light in our hearts and so we then believe. That is versus those who are perishing where it says the gospel is veiled from their hearts by Satan.
Satan can not block God's light of the gospel and glory of Christ the light from shining into the hearts of those God has renewed.

Seriously, if any verse points to God's saving by grace alone, that passage tells it very well.

 

[Hammster]

So you do not believe that spiritually, when we are born-again that Christ takes us through His entire conquering of sin, so that we have also died spiritually to sin, with Him?

You believe that it is just something that is said so we can identify our identity with Christ?

I believe that we spiritually are born again by Jesus taking us through His conquering of sin, which is why we are dead to sin. Spiritually. Literally, dead to sin. It has NO hold on us and it can no longer spiritually pull us away from Christ. Because a man can only die once. Spiritually and physically.

That takes me back then to my previous post, that Paul was just being dramatic if it does not indeed happen that way with each believer.

So how can the inerrant Word of God say that if it does not indeed happen? Why would Paul walk us through everything that Jesus did to conquer sin and say that is what sin is to us now, in our being born-agaiin if it does not indeed happen?

THen the inerrancy of scripture becomes an issue. I am not seeking further clarification into what you said previously, I am asking how you reconcile it with being for identification purposes only when it says 'you have died to sin'. 'You have been crucified to sin'. 'You have been buried with Christ'.

It is statements. Telling us about who we are in Christ.

I believe that those who are saved and will be saved have been crucified with Christ. I believe that I am sitting at the right hand of the Father. Those who will be saved don't need to be taken through anything. Read Hebrews 9 and 10. There's no process. It's done.

I know you keep saying that Romand 6 shows a process. But when I read what you write about it, and then look at the text, there's just no there there. It's like you are forcing your ideas into the text instead of deriving them from the text.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, can you give some names of other Christians who have also come to this conclusion? Perhaps reading what they wrote will help.

 

[Hammster]

Hello Hammster.

You asked, why does God need to supply us with Love through the indwelling
Holy Spirit. The answer is simply because mankind has a dysfunctional, selfish
nature. Man cannot love because mankind is self consumed.

Since man is unable to initiate a belief in Jesus Christ without God acting in
the first instance, and the scripture is very clear on this point. So then God must
reach out to humanity through time and space in the first instance, by convicting
the world of sin.

John 16
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness
and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

I was actually asking why we need a new heart? What's wrong with the heart of stone??

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you think you did, then that's the problem. You aren't comprehending my posts. I think they are pretty simple. But maybe I should try to make them more so.

lol Your posts are clear enough. The problem is that you have failed to support any of your claims when asked to do so. Because there are no verses that support your claims. Which you keep proving.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you believe that someone can be converted but live their entire life like they weren't and still be saved?

There are many examples of it. So let me ask you a question in the physical realm. If one does not feed a baby, will it grow to maturity?

 

[Hammster]

lol Your posts are clear enough. The problem is that you have failed to support any of your claims when asked to do so. Because there are no verses that support your claims. Which you keep proving.

The "claim" I made, if you trace back the conversation, is that you cannot prove the Trinity with a verse.

So perhaps it's not my communication that's the problem.

 

[Hammster]

There are many examples of it. So let me ask you a question in the physical realm. If one does not feed a baby, will it grow to maturity?

No, it won't. But I'm completely trusting in the Father and the Shepherd to take care of their own. You, obviously, think the child is responsible. I suppose that's more man-centered thinkin.

 

[Job8]

The "claim" I made, if you trace back the conversation, is that you cannot prove the Trinity with a verse.

Why not? Matthew 28:19 is clear and unmistakable proof of the Trinity.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

We know that the Father is God the Father
We know that the Son is God the Son
Therefore we conclude that the Holy Spirit is God the Holy Spirit.

That there is only one NAME (singular) but three Divine Persons tells us that this Name is the Name of God, who is one yet three. This is confirmed by 1 John 5:7.

 

[Hammster]

Why not? Matthew 28:19 is clear and unmistakable proof of the Trinity.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

We know that the Father is God the Father
We know that the Son is God the Son
Therefore we conclude that the Holy Spirit is God the Holy Spirit.

That there is only one NAME (singular) but three Divine Persons tells us that this Name is the Name of God, who is one yet three. This is confirmed by 1 John 5:7.

You, too, are missing the point. That's a verse that supports the doctrine. But it does not say any of those members are God, or that they are one.

But now you get my point. FG constantly asks for verses to support. There are no single verses that support Calvinism. There are scriptures to support Calvinism (even if you disagree). It's not a simplistic dictrine. Just like the Trinity. So FG claims victory often because he thinks he has verses, his doctrine is correct. He doesn't look at context, which has been shown through the years. But that's not my problem.