Logical Problems with Calvinism

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 1:4
knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Well I don't know about you, but I am elect as Paul and Peter teach. Maybe you are not elect. Maybe you will fall away, become hardened as Jason you say only the elect get special treatment.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
That is no proof at all, where is the timeline, surely you know.
And what happened afterwards, you can not judge them since you can not know if they returned again.
Jason, you're saying Christ telling them their names are written in heaven was temporary, but I showed you that you said is a lie as all God's children have their names written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

All born of God believers are elect or God would not have made them born of God which means they are in God's family permanently.

First, if they are written in the book of life since the foundation of the world, that does not mean that their name cannot be blotted out. Jesus says it is only to those who are victorious in their faith whereby He promises to not blot out their names (Revelation 3:5).

Second, the 70 disciples mentioned in Luke are of the many disciples that stopped following Jesus in John 6. Unless of course you want to suggest that there were two different groups of many disciples that followed Jesus. However, the Bible gives us no indication that there were to different large groups that followed him. There was the 12 and then the 70.

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Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 1:4
knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Well I don't know about you, but I am elect as Paul and Peter teach. Maybe you are not elect. Maybe you will fall away, become hardened as Jason you say only the elect get special treatment.

However, the Elect of God are described as being holy, though.

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do you.

And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you are called in one body; and be thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:12-16).

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sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
First, if they are written in the book of life since the foundation of the world, that does not mean that their name cannot be blotted out. Jesus says it is only to those who are victorious in their faith whereby He promises to not blot out their names (Revelation 3:5).

Second, the 70 disciples mentioned in Luke are of the many disciples that stopped following Jesus in John 6. Unless of course you want to suggest that there were two different groups of many disciples that followed Jesus. However, the Bible gives us no indication that there were to different large groups that followed him. There was the 12 and then the 70.

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And what timeline is this?
You actually have no proof as I have kept saying when these events occurred.

HOWEVER, I pointed out that after the third DAY, the resurrection He appeared right close afterwards to 500 brethren (disciples.)
But your teaching disciples kept getting smaller and fewer and less and less.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
And what timeline is this?
You actually have no proof as I have kept saying when these events occurred.

HOWEVER, I pointed out that after the third DAY, the resurrection He appeared right close afterwards to 500 brethren (disciples.)
But your teaching disciples kept getting smaller and fewer and less and less.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Jesus did not have 500 disciples before the crucifixion. Luke 10 and John 6:66 clearly happens before Jesus was crucified. The 500 brethren (not disciples) were present AFTER Christ's resurrection.

"And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:4-6).

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sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

There is no indication believers are having their names blotted out of the Book!
HE who overcomes, where else do we read that.
Oh, in 1 John 5
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Jason, why not open your eyes, Christ's believers are God's elect.
Now if they fall away, then they are not believers are they....and truly never were saved

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

There is no indication believers are having their names blotted out of the Book!
HE who overcomes, where else do we read that.
Oh, in 1 John 5
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Jason, why not open your eyes, Christ's believers are God's elect.
Now if they fall away, then they are not believers are they....and truly never were saved

It says he that OVERCOMES Jesus promises to not blot out their name from the book of life. You make it sound like there is no blotting out of any names. Is that what you are saying? Yet, Jesus says that he will not blot out names to those who overcome in their faith. This suggests the possiblity that names can be blotted out if Jesus says that he will not blot out names for a certain group of believers.

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sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Jesus did not have 500 disciples before the crucifixion. Luke 10 and John 6:66 clearly happens before Jesus was crucified. The 500 brethren (not disciples) were present AFTER Christ's resurrection.

"And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:4-6).

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Those 500 hundred just miraculously appear humm?
No way, they were brethren (disciples of Christ) who knew Jesus before His crucifixion.
Jesus appears to the 500 right after appearing to the 12.

And Acts 1 says there were 120 of those believers gathered together. More than enough to account for the seventy sent out.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

Psalm 69:28 tells us that names can be blotted out of the book of life.

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Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Those 500 hundred just miraculously appear humm?
No way, they were brethren (disciples of Christ) who knew Jesus before His crucifixion.
Jesus appears to the 500 right after appearing to the 12.

Yes, you will not find any mention in the Bible of 500 brethren before the crucifxion.
I mean, at Pentecost, three thousand believed in a day (See Acts chapter 2).

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sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
It says he that OVERCOMES Jesus promises to not blot out their name from the book of life. Now, you say that there is no blotting out of any names. Yet, Jesus says that he will not blot out names to those who overcome in their faith. This suggests the possiblity that names can be blotted out if Jesus says that he will not blot out names for a certain group of believers.

...

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That is correct, Christ will not blot out the names of His believers.
Jason your sounding like a heretic.

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Yes, you will not find any mention in the Bible of 500 brethren before the crucifxion.
I mean, at Pentecost, three thousand believed in a day (See Acts chapter 2).

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So what, there were 120 believers gather together in Acts 1.
More than the 70 sent our earlier.

The prophecy was strike the shepherd and let the sheep be scattered.
But the shepherd rose from the dead and gathered up the sheep again seeing He is the great Shepherd of the sheep.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
That is correct, Christ will not blot out the names of His believers.

No. Christ will not blot out the names of those believers who overcome or endure in their faith. It is not talking about all believers in general. Not all believers will be saved. This evident if you were to go back and re-read Matthew 7.

Jason your sounding like a heretic.

Speaking badly against others in the faith only works against you, my friend. Please see Matthew 5:11-12.

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Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
So what, there were 120 believers gather together in Acts 1.
More than the 70 sent our earlier.

The prophecy was strike the shepherd and let the sheep be scattered.
But the shepherd rose from the dead and gathered up the sheep again seeing He is the great Shepherd of the sheep.

Not sure how this helps you. Acts 1 clearly happens after the resurrection. Luke 10 and John 6 happen before Christ was crucified.

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sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Not sure how this helps you. Acts 1 clearly happens after the resurrection. Luke 10 and John 6 happen before Christ was crucified.

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Jason you are so lost as to understanding the scriptures.
I know others have also challenged you and your just plain hardened.
God will not blot out believers in Christ since they overcome the world by their faith.
The testimony of the Apostle John clearly says that, and it is just impossible for you to comprehend that.
You are really confused in your doctrine, and I just can not keep going round in circles over and over, eventually I just stop.

Hey, my words line up kinda neat like.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Jason you are so lost as to understanding the scriptures.
I know others have also challenged you and your just plain hardened.
God will not blot out believers in Christ since they overcome the world by their faith.
The testimony of the Apostle John clearly says that, and it is just impossible for you to comprehend that.
You are really confused in your doctrine, and I just can not keep going round in circles over and over, eventually I just stop.

Hey, my words line up kinda neat like.

Being a believer is more than just having a trust in Jesus that he is your Savior. Believing Jesus also includes believing everything that He said for us to do, too (Which would involve a life of holiness). If not, then we are not having faith in the words of Jesus.

Christ gave us many commands to follow. Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not what I say? Meaning, a person cannot make Jesus their Lord and refuse to do what he says. True believers who endure in their faith is talking about believers who are faithful to Jesus in what He commanded them to do. For what happens to the unprofitable servant according to Scripture?

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sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

God destroys unbelievers.
Believers, God has saved.
Demons do not count as we are talking about the relationship of God and people regarding salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
God destroys unbelievers.
Believers, God has saved.
Demons do not count as we are talking about the relationship of God and people regarding salvation.

Read James chapter 2 again. What does James say in regards to being justified?

Also, James relates mere belief alone with no works as the belief of demons. For James says, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:19-20).

But what about Paul saying we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:1-8? Well, Paul is talking about how we come to the faith in receiving God's free gift of salvation. In Ephesians 2 and Romans 4, Paul is primarily referencing the word "works" as the Law of Moses because he is addressing the topic of circumcision. However, we are now under the Commands in the New Testament. So following the Old Law would now be a man made theology. So Paul is saying we are not saved by man directed works. We are saved by God's grace whereby then the Lord lives within us (Which then results in the fruit of holiness in obeying the New Covenant). James is talking about God directed works done in the believer because the Lord lives within them. In other words, Paul is talking about what is going on the inside of one's faith. James is talking about what a true saving faith looks like externally. They are two sides of the same coin.

As for God destroying believers: Well, the Scriptures say that Christ will send forth his angels to remove all who do sin or iniquity within his Kingdom so as to be cast into the furnace of fire (Which would obviously be so as to destroy them).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:41-42).

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Bible Highlighter · Dec 30, 2015

Also, if you believe in Calvinism, then a name should technically never appear in the Book of Life in the first place for it to even be blotted out. A blotting out of one's name suggests that an individual once had life but now they do not have life anymore. This lets us know that man is responsible on whether or not his own name is in the book of life. For a "blotting out of one's name" proposes a mistake on behalf of the person and not God. However, God does not make mistakes, though.

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sdowney717 · Dec 30, 2015

Jason teaches this
As for God destroying believers: Well, the Scriptures say that Christ will send forth his angels to remove all who do sin or iniquity within his Kingdom so as to be cast into the furnace of fire (Which would obviously be so as to destroy them).

Revelation 11:15 [ Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed ] Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

So yes of course God will cast all things that offend Him out of His kingdom, Jason that is no evidence people lose their salvation.
What a severe twisting of Christ's own words, not shocking what you believe though considering all your postings.

The wheat and tares parable prove that the elect are those whom the Lord planted, the sons of the kingdom are saved, while the devil plants the tares (weeds) in among those God plants (wheat) and tares are the ones who offended God's holy angels right away and will be destroyed in the fire. Yet you teach the sons of the kingdom that God planted turn into the tares!! Jason your just plain crazy doctrines are foolishness.

You do realize Jason, that God had put his seal on His plants, the wheat, sons of the kingdom, so the angels who see into the spiritual realm could tell who was who immediately and wanted to pluck out only the tares planted by Satan.
Tares and wheat look similar, but to a trained observer (God's angels) they can tell them apart. They are demonstrably different by their budding fruits heads.
But the sons of the kingdom and the tares God says both must grow together to be split apart at the judgement day, lest the wheat be damaged.
God's only concern is to protect His wheat crop that will be put into His barn.

It appears to me, that you will deliberately corrupt all the scriptures to support your crazy views. Just like Peter said.

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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