Logical Problems with Calvinism

Marvin Knox · Dec 29, 2015

Jason said, "It's a cooperation with God involving our own free will."

How do we cooperate with God initially if we are spiritually dead and His Holy Spirit is not communing with ours?

Jason0047 said:
............. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. ....

Yes but it says that we can do that because God is working in us to do His good pleasure.

If we die spiritually again because the Spirit of God has been withdrawn - how can we continue to work with God within us if He is no longer there?

Does He come and go in life depending on how serious we are about making the right choices?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I don't believe that I have ever in my life loved God with all my heart.

I don't believe that I have ever loved my neighbor as I have loved myself either.

I'm in a world of hurt according to you.

I've always had the right to "saved and inherits eternal life" through loving God fully and loving my neighbor as myself as you say.

That's the bad old news.

What's the new good news? What is the gospel that we preach to the world?
I hope this helps. I will not be answering all your questions, as I believe I have answered them here.
I appreciate your going to the effort to answer my questions. I didn't expect an answer to tell you the truth.

I won't be continuing to ask question upon question for long.

But please do tell me what the good news is that you are preaching to us. I'm missing it.

Also how can I overcome my sin if the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn and I am spiritually dead?

Can I be regenerated again and again and be born again again and again?

Thanks!

The Scriptures talk about those who are TWICE dead, plucked up by their roots (Jude 1:12). The only way a person can be twice dead is if they died twice spiritually. As for being plucked up by the roots. This is an allusion to the Parable of the Sower in how the one who endure in their faith and became fruitful was able to do so because they had "root in God's Word."

But the Bible does mention how a faithful Christan can bring back a believer who has backslidden into a life of sin to the faith to the saving of their soul in James 5:19-20. This is also what we see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, too. When the son returned home, the father said TWICE that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again."

....

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
Yes but it says that we can do that because God is working in us to do His good pleasure.

If we die spiritually again because the Spirit of God has been withdrawn - how can we continue to work with God within us if He is no longer there?

Does He come and go in life depending on how serious we are about making the right choices?

Yes, absolutely. The Spirit of God departed from Saul because of his sin.

...

FreeGrace2 · Dec 29, 2015

Marvin Knox said: ↑
Yes but it says that we can do that because God is working in us to do His good pleasure.

If we die spiritually again because the Spirit of God has been withdrawn - how can we continue to work with God within us if He is no longer there?

Does He come and go in life depending on how serious we are about making the right choices?

Jason0047 said:
Yes, absolutely. The Spirit of God departed from Saul because of his sin....

And yet, the Bible is clear about where he went after death. He joined Samuel. 1 Sam 28:19

And we all know where Samuel went: Paradise. Where Saul joined him.

Marvin Knox · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Yes, absolutely. The Spirit of God departed from Saul because of his sin....

Do you believe that Saul was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who was given to Him by God as a pledge of a guaranteed inheritance?

EmSw · Dec 29, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I was being facetious in my post.

That's because I don't think the things you say can be called, by any stretch of the imagination, "good news".

You mean the things Jesus said, don't you?

However, it does excite me that the Lord loves me so much, He has shown me the way to inherit eternal life. To inherit eternal life brings much joy in my life.

Marvin Knox said:
I don't believe that I have ever in my life loved God with all my heart.

I don't believe that I have ever loved my neighbor as I have loved myself either.

I'm in a world of hurt according to you.

You mean according to Jesus, don't you?

I wonder, does Calvinism teach that man should love God with all his heart? If not, then you probably haven't been taught to love God with all your heart. If man hasn't been taught to love God with all his heart and to love his neighbor as himself, why would he pursue it? I'm sure you have read those passages many times, but just passed them by without stopping to consider its truth and its implication upon your life.

But there are many things each of us haven't considered in the Bible and its impact upon our lives. But, it's never too late to pray and ask God about His revealed truth. He is always with you, so you will not go it alone. He will give you strength to do these things. But, that is only if you deeply desire to have Him show you these things.

Marvin Knox said:
What's the new good news? What is the gospel that we preach to the world?

Once a person starts to love God with all his heart and his neighbor as himself, the good news will become self-evident.

Marvin Knox said:
I appreciate your going to the effort to answer my questions. I didn't expect an answer to tell you the truth.

It's the least I can do.

Marvin Knox said:
I won't be continuing to ask question upon question for long.

But please do tell me what the good news is that you are preaching to us. I'm missing it.

Once the realization of inheriting eternal life is offered to you by the Lord, the eternal truth of the Lord's words will encompass your heart and fill it with everlasting joy.

Marvin Knox said:
Also how can I overcome my sin if the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn and I am spiritually dead?

Can I be regenerated again and again and be born again again and again?

Thanks!

If a man walks in the Light, hears, understands, and obeys God's truths, the HS will not be withdrawn.

Regeneration is one of our main differences, so I will not go into it at this time. As you know, I believe regeneration is a lifelong process, but we will leave it at that.

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
The Scriptures talk about those who are TWICE dead, plucked up by their roots (Jude 1:12). The only way a person can be twice dead is if they died twice spiritually. As for being plucked up by the roots. This is an allusion to the Parable of the Sower in how the one who endure in their faith and became fruitful was able to do so because they had "root in God's Word."

But the Bible does mention how a faithful Christan can bring back a believer who has backslidden into a life of sin to the faith to the saving of their soul in James 5:19-20. This is also what we see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, too. When the son returned home, the father said TWICE that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again."

....

Twice dead does not mean they were alive at all at any time. Jude is talking about these apostates when referring to those who are twice (doubly most certainly are) dead. Who were long beforehand marked out for condemnation, that would be before they were born they were so marked.
They never had any spiritual eternal life! They are dead physically and they are dead spiritually, they are doubly dead fruitless trees, they are marked out long ago for death.
Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Marvin Knox · Dec 29, 2015

EmSw said:
You mean the things Jesus said, don't you?
You mean according to Jesus, don't you?

You do know, don't you, that Jesus said these things under the old covenant before He laid down His life for us - before we were crucified with Him?

EmSw said:
However, it does excite me that the Lord loves me so much, He has shown me the way to inherit eternal life. To inherit eternal life brings much joy in my life.

Actually He has shown you the way to inherit eternal life.

He has shown you through the words of the Holy Spirit of Christ Who was given to us after He paid the price for our sins. If only you would acknowledge the way that He has shown us.

The returning again to the old covenant after He installed the new covenant through the breaking of His body and the shedding of His blood - is denying the Lord who bought you as I read it.

EmSw said:
I wonder, does Calvinism teach that man should love God with all his heart? If not, then you probably haven't been taught to love God with all your heart. If man hasn't been taught to love God with all his heart and to love his neighbor as himself, why would he pursue it? I'm sure you have read those passages many times, but just passed them by without stopping to consider its truth and its implication upon your life.

My not being a Calvinist - you would probably be better served to ask a Calvinist about this. However, I am fairly well versed in what Calvinists teach.

I have never met, heard, or read a Calvinist who did not tech that a man should love God with all his heart. Have you?

A man (including a born again Calvinist) would pursue love because of the Holy Spirit within him who leads Him into truth.

I recon that most of us have read these passages many times. The difference is that some of us have read them after resting in the finished work of Christ as our only hope of salvation.

Because some of us have so rested (as opposed to you evidently) - we see the quotes you mention from Jesus in a different light than does someone who remains under the law as his only hope of salvation.

The implications for my life in obeying Jesus are seen in a completely different light than the way you see them - being under law as you are.

EmSw said:
............. But, it's never too late to pray and ask God about His revealed truth. He is always with you, so you will not go it alone. He will give you strength to do these things. But, that is only if you deeply desire to have Him show you these things.

Once a person starts to love God with all his heart and his neighbor as himself, the good news will become self-evident.

Right back at ya!

EmSw said:
Once the realization of inheriting eternal life is offered to you by the Lord, the eternal truth of the Lord's words will encompass your heart and fill it with everlasting joy.

It has fill me with everlasting joy. I am eternally secure in my salvation. I wish everyone, including you, could see it that way.

EmSw said:
Regeneration is one of our main differences, so I will not go into it at this time. As you know, I believe regeneration is a lifelong process, but we will leave it at that.

That's interesting - because I believe the same thing.

But then you have never asked me about that have you?

You've just continued to assign me a place with the full blown Calvinists. You have done so no matter how many times you have been corrected about that.

That's one of the reasons we have so much trouble.

My take on regeneration is somewhat different than yours for sure. But then it is similar in some ways.

ToBeLoved · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
No. The Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29).

...

No. That is not true.

The Word says we can ONLY serve ONE master.

So it's either God or self.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Marvin Knox said: ↑
Yes but it says that we can do that because God is working in us to do His good pleasure.

If we die spiritually again because the Spirit of God has been withdrawn - how can we continue to work with God within us if He is no longer there?

Does He come and go in life depending on how serious we are about making the right choices?

And yet, the Bible is clear about where he went after death. He joined Samuel. 1 Sam 28:19

And we all know where Samuel went: Paradise. Where Saul joined him.

No. There are two compartments to Sheol. There is Hades and Paradie in Sheol. The text is merely saying Saul joined Samuel in the realm of the dead (or in death). It does not say he joined him in Paradise. It is merely saying he crossed over unto death. Also, this vision of Samuel was also sought out by the means of the dark arts. Seeking out the dark arts is condemned in the Bible. So Saul was more than likely talking with a demon.

I mean, it is just wrong to say that a person can fall away from God like Saul and still be saved. It doesn't make any sense. The Spirit of God departed from him and Saul looked to seek out his own path by means of the dark arts. This is letting us know he was no longer in favor with God anymore.

...

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
No. That is not true.

The Word says we can ONLY serve ONE master.

So it's either God or self.

Again. I agree. You can only serve one master. But it is by your fruit that determines which master is ruling over your life, though. For Jesus said we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit.

....

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Twice dead does not mean they were alive at all at any time. Jude is talking about these apostates when referring to those who are twice (doubly most certainly are) dead. Who were long beforehand marked out for condemnation, that would be before they were born they were so marked.
They never had any spiritual eternal life! They are dead physically and they are dead spiritually, they are doubly dead fruitless trees, they are marked out long ago for death.
Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

No. It does not make any sense to say TWICE dead if it has no actual meaning in not saying that. It is talking spiritually. They were dead spiritually at two points in time of their life.

First time they were spiritually dead was after they grew up and came to know of the knowledge of good and evil whereby they would have sinned. They would have then gained life by accepting Jesus Christ. The second time they would have died spiritually is AFTER they accepted Christ and had drawn back into their old life of sin. We see this happen several times in the Scripture. The 70 disciples were told that they were to rejoice that their names were written in Heaven. But yet, these same disciples had stopped following Jesus later on.

As for those being marked out for the Condemnation: Well, that passage is not saying that the Condemnation was their only choice available to them. It does not say that they were marked out as it was their fate. They were marked for the Condemnation because God has a set plan or mark, or appointment for those who CHOOSE to not obey the Lord of their own free will.

...

FreeGrace2 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
No. There are two compartments to Sheol. There is Hades and Paradie in Sheol. The text is merely saying Saul joined Samuel in the realm of the dead.

First, you admit there are 2 separate compartments in hell. Then you drop the ball and waffle on where Samuel resided. Where in the context of the medium did Samuel indicate that Saul would only enter the "realm of the dead"? He didn't. He said very clearly that Saul would JOIN HIM the next day. Where Samuel was residing.

It does not say he joined him in Paradise.

That is the clear implication because Samuel SAID that Saul would join him.

It is merely saying he crossed over unto death.

If all Samuel meant to say was what Saul would die the next day, he would have said only that. But what he said is crystal clear, but some just don't want to accept it because it refutes their theology.

I mean, it is just wrong to say that a person can away like Saul and still be saved.

Well then, why don't you take that to God and complain to Him about His own plan, huh? It's God's word that tells us that Saul joined Samuel the next day. And we all know EXACTLY where Samuel was residing in sheol: Paradise. Where Saul joined him.

It's really amazing to see how some react to Scripture that directly refutes their ideas.

It doesn't make any sense.

Then you certainly do not understand God's GRACE in any way.

We don't deserve or earn our salvation, and we don't deserve or earn to stay saved.

The Spirit of God departed from him and Saul looked to seek out his own path by means of the dark arts. This is letting us know he was no longer in favor with God anymore....

This is all true. In fact, he was so far out of favor with God that God killed him, according to 1 Chron 10:13,14 -
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,

14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He (God) killed him (Saul) and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

This is what the Bible calls the "sin unto death", specifically stated in 1 John 5:16 and examples given throughout the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

Saul is an example in the OT. Ananias and Saphhira, and the "some who sleep" in Cor 11:30 are examples in the NT.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
Do you believe that Saul was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who was given to Him by God as a pledge of a guaranteed inheritance?

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit does not mean a person cannot break that seal. Seals mentioned in the Bible have been broken. The Scriptures say that "circumsiion" is a seal. And yet, if a person broke the Old Law as a part of the Old Covenant, their circumcision was made uncircumsion. It is no different with the New Covenant. Read Hebrews 10:26 on after.

....

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
No. It does not make any sense to say TWICE dead if it has no actual meaning in not saying that. It is talking spiritually. They were dead spiritually at two points in time of their life.

First time they were spiritually dead was after they grew up and came to know of the knowledge of good and evil whereby they would have sinned. They would have then gained life by accepting Jesus Christ. The second time they would have died spiritually is AFTER they accepted Christ and had drawn back into their old life of sin. We see this happen several times in the Scripture. The 70 disciples were told that they were to rejoice that their names were written in Heaven. But yet, these same disciples had stopped following Jesus later on.

As for those being marked out for the Condemnation: Well, that passage is not saying that the Condemnation was their only choice available to them. It does not say that they were marked out as it was their fate. They were marked for the Condemnation because God has a set plan or mark, or appointment for those who CHOOSE to not obey the Lord of their own free will.

...

'The 70 disciples were told that they were to rejoice that their names were written in Heaven. But yet, these same disciples had stopped following Jesus later on.'

Let us see your proof to judge what your teaching here. And it must be in scripture, not extra biblical hearsay.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
First, you admit there are 2 separate compartments in hell. Then you drop the ball and waffle on where Samuel resided. Where in the context of the medium did Samuel indicate that Saul would only enter the "realm of the dead"? He didn't. He said very clearly that Saul would JOIN HIM the next day. Where Samuel was residing.

That is the clear implication because Samuel SAID that Saul would join him.

If all Samuel meant to say was what Saul would die the next day, he would have said only that. But what he said is crystal clear, but some just don't want to accept it because it refutes their theology.

Well then, why don't you take that to God and complain to Him about His own plan, huh? It's God's word that tells us that Saul joined Samuel the next day. And we all know EXACTLY where Samuel was residing in sheol: Paradise. Where Saul joined him.

It's really amazing to see how some react to Scripture that directly refutes their ideas.

Then you certainly do not understand God's GRACE in any way.

We don't deserve or earn our salvation, and we don't deserve or earn to stay saved.

This is all true. In fact, he was so far out of favor with God that God killed him, according to 1 Chron 10:13,14 -
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,

14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He (God) killed him (Saul) and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

This is what the Bible calls the "sin unto death", specifically stated in 1 John 5:16 and examples given throughout the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

Saul is an example in the OT. Ananias and Saphhira, and the "some who sleep" in Cor 11:30 are examples in the NT.

First, the being who looked like Samuel in the vision said this to Saul,

"Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?" (1 Samuel 28:16).

Here we see it is very clear that the spirit who appeared as Samuel (Whether it was a genuine vision or demonic one), had said to Saul that God had departed from him and said he has become his enemy.

Second, the being that appeared as Samuel said he would be with him. This is talking about death because in verse 20, Saul was not comforted in hearing these words but he was very afraid.

Also, other translations make it clear that the spirit that appeared as Samuel said that he would be with him in death, too.

"Moreover, the Lord will also put Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me [among the dead]." (1 Samuel 28:16) (Amplified Bible).

"Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead." (1 Sameuel 18:16) (Contempory English Version).

Third, nowhere does the Bible ever say Saul was saved. On the contrary, it indicates that he was not saved.

...

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

While it is true some disciples left off following Christ, there is no evidence of what they did afterwards, and their names are not mentioned in scripture.
After His resurrection there were some 500 who witnessed Him alive.
IF Christ said their names were written in Heaven, then their names are written in Heaven.
Those whom God foreknew, their names are also written in heaven. All God's elect have their names written in heaven before the creation of the world.

He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 1 Cor 15.4-6

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
'The 70 disciples were told that they were to rejoice that their names were written in Heaven. But yet, these same disciples had stopped following Jesus later on.'

Let us see your proof to judge what your teaching here. And it must be in scripture, not extra biblical hearsay.

Luke 10:17-20,

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

John 6:66-68,

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

BTW ~ 666 is not a good number (i.e. John 6:66). This is the point where man of his disciples had stopped following Jesus. To stop following Jesus means a person is no longer of follower of Jesus anymore (Which means they are not saved). For a person cannot be their own master and Lord and also make Jesus their Lord, too. It doesn't work like that. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that find it (Not many).

...

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

As for Revelation 17:8: Well, this is talking about the Elect or those in whom God knew who would endure in their faith to the End. It is not talking about those whose name's have been blotted out. For a name in the Book of Life can only be blotted out if they once had life and they then lost it.

Revelation 3:5 says those who are victorious (i.e. those who endure to the end in their faith) will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life.

Blotting out names does not make any sense if one's name was always there and it could not be tampered with in any way.

....

sdowney717 · Dec 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Luke 10:17-20,

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

John 6:66-68,

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

BTW ~ 666 is not a good number (i.e. John 6:66). This is the point where man of his disciples had stopped following Jesus. To stop following Jesus means you are no longer of follower of Jesus anymore (Which means you are not saved). For you cannot be your own master and Lord and also make Jesus your Lord, too. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that find it (Not many).

...

That is no proof at all, where is the timeline, surely you know.
And what happened afterwards, you can not judge them since you can not know if they returned again.
Jason, you're saying Christ telling them their names are written in heaven was temporary, but I showed you that you said is a lie as all God's children have their names written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

All born of God believers are elect or God would not have made them born of God which means they are in God's family permanently.

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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