Logical Problems with Calvinism

Bible Highlighter · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Even so a forced regeneration is not yet salvation as they must believe in the heart to be declared righteous and confession is made unto salvation. They do that since God teaches them who are regenerated.

3 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me drags (draws, think of water being drawn, the water can not resist either it is led pushed moved towards the direction the one who wishes it to move) him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
ALL those taught are those who are drawn and they all come to Christ in belief.

I cannot see how a person who was just recenlty regenerated is unsaved unless of course they had turned around and sinned and refused to repent of such an evil. For example, the thief on the cross was surely saved.

The ALL those who are taught by the Father is in context to Jewish believers and not all people. Granted, there were some Gentiles who followed the Jewish faith. But the call to preach the gospel had not went out to the Gentiles yet. Those faithful OT saints in the Old Testament (Who followed the Jewish faith - both Jew and Gentile) who had knowledge by the Father and the Spirit will be drawn by the Father and come to accept Jesus Christ by faith. We see this with Cornelius, etc. This does not teach a forced a regeneration.

...

Bible Highlighter · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Only those born of Him, which means God is their Father, so they are the children will be obedient and believe. Of course some do resist, like Paul did. God wins, He can not be ultimately resisted.

That is simply not true. Paul said he did not disobey the heavenly vision. Meaning, he could have disobeyed. Paul also warns us about how we can shipwreck our faith, too. This does not sound like forced regeneration to me.

...

sdowney717 · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I cannot see how a person was just recenlty regenerated is unsaved unless of course they had turned around and sinned and refused to repent of such an evil.

The ALL those who are taught by the Father is in context to Jewish believers and not all people. Granted, there were some Gentiles who followed the Jewish faith. But the call to preach the gospel had not went out to the Gentiles yet. Those faithful OT saints in the Old Testament (Who followed the Jewish faith - both Jew and Gentile) who had knowledge by the Father and the Spirit will be drawn by the Father and come to accept Jesus Christ by faith. We see this with Cornelius, etc. This does not teach a forced a regeneration.

...

Their isn't any difference between Jew or Gentile in the NT established by Christ, God is the God of them both. So don't divide them artificially.
All of Christ's teaching is part of the New Covenant.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Their isn't any difference between Jew or Gentile in the NT established by Christ, God is the God of them both. So don't divide them artificially.
All of Christ's teaching is part of the New Covenant.

While Christ primarily taught New Covenant and not Old Covenant, the New Testament did not officially begin until his death took place when the temple veil was torn. Jesus was talking to Jewish people in that passage and not to Gentiles. Jesus first preached to the lost house of Israel. It wasn't until after his death and resurrection until he told his disciples to preach to all nations. Granted, the Gentiles could be saved under the Old Covenant by the Jewish faith. But when Jesus came and died upon the cross and had risen from the dead, that changed everything. But as I said before, Cornelius was a Gentile who followed the Jewish faith. So I am not against God wanting to save both Jews and Gentiles. The problem is that you are not reading this passage in view of placing yourself into that actual moment in time.

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sdowney717 · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
That is simply not true. Paul said he did not disobey the heavenly vision. Meaning, he could have disobeyed. Paul also warns us about how we can shipwreck our faith, too. This does not sound like forced regeneration to me.

...

Oh yes it it's most certainly true, your adding into the text a strange idea.
Galatians 1

15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased

16 To reveal (unveil, disclose) His Son within me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles (the non-Jewish world) as the glad tidings (Gospel), immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood [did not consult or counsel with any frail human being or communicate with anyone].

I know you disagree with God's calling of election, so you can not understand the scripture.
Paul said he was not disobedient, but not that Paul would want to be or would be since Paul was elected to be what he was. So then most certainly Paul was not nor would Paul be disobedient to the vision, the course of His life was written beforehand since God had foreknown Him to be zapped by the Holy Spirit into the kingdom of God (your words).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Oh yes it it's most certainly true, your adding into the text a strange idea.
Galatians 1

15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased

16 To reveal (unveil, disclose) His Son within me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles (the non-Jewish world) as the glad tidings (Gospel), immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood [did not consult or counsel with any frail human being or communicate with anyone].

I know you disagree with God's calling of election, so you can not understand the scripture.
Paul said he was not disobedient, but not that Paul would want to be or would be since Paul was elected to be what he was. So then most certainly Paul was not nor would Paul be disobedient to the vision.

Nowhere does Galatians 1:15-16 say that Paul was chosen by God against his own free will. The Son being revealed in Paul's life doees not equate with a forced regeneration.

...

sdowney717 · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Nowhere does Galatians 1:15-16 say that Paul was chosen by God against his own free will.

...

None who are regenerated are zapped into the kingdom against their will. They are changed, their minds and spirit renewed.
They are no longer the old man. You teach the old man can be saved, but to be saved you have to become a spiritual man.
They then desire the Truth, the way and the life which is Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 23, 2015

In other words, in order for a forced regeneration to be seen in the Scriptures, we would have to see absolutely zero warnings in the Bible to the believer and we would see men of God perfectly obeying God after accepting Christ with no memory or knowledge as to how they got that way.

....

Bible Highlighter · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
None who are regenerated are zapped into the kingdom against their will. They are changed, their minds and spirit renewed.
They are no longer the old man. You teach the old man can be saved, but to be saved you have to become a spiritual man.
They then desire the Truth, the way and the life which is Christ.

Then how does it work then? Does a person who is regenerated have the capacity to resist Christ? If not, then they are being zapped into the Kingdom.

....

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
None who are regenerated are zapped into the kingdom against their will. They are changed, their minds and spirit renewed.
They are no longer the old man. You teach the old man can be saved, but to be saved you have to become a spiritual man.
They then desire the Truth, the way and the life which is Christ.

One cannot become spiritual until AFTER they have been saved/born again. The person becomes spiritual after they receive the Holy Spirit, have the Word written on their hearts and are given the mind of Christ.

Maybe you do not understand how the Bible uses the word spiritual and unspiritual. You should look into that.

We come to Christ in faith, we are then born again. Our old man comes to Christ in faith, then we are born again by Christ into a new creation.

sdowney717 · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Then how does it work then? Does a person who is regenerated have the capacity to resist Christ? If not, then they are being zapped into the Kingdom.

....

You just do not believe what Christ has said about these things.
If you keep resisting what Christ said, what I say won't help either.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 23, 2015

I said this:
"Of course the Bible teaches clearly that a believer can fall away from the faith. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that those who have fallen away lose their salvation. That assumption is very common, but is not taught in Scripture.

Instead, the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5."

Jason0047 said:
Well, here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

You missed my point completely. This isn't the issue. Obviously the Bible says that people fall away from the faith. The issue is to prove from Scripture that falling away from the faith results in loss of salvation.

That is NOT found anywhere in Scripture.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God).

This seems to be a word game. Whether salvation is "lost", or "forfeited" results in the EXACT SAME CONDITION: going to hell. And I don't play word games. Your statement is internally contradicted.

And there are NO VERSES that indicate that one even can "willingly throw it away". That's just wishful thinking.

In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

Refuted by Samuel's words in 1 Sam 28:19. Saul joined Samuel after death.

Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias And Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)
Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

NONE of these verses say that any of these people "forfeited their salvation". ZERO

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)

Again, there is no evidence in any of these verses about the "potential" of losing/forfeiting their salvation.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Only those born of Him, which means God is their Father, so they are the children will be obedient and believe. Of course some do resist, like Paul did. God wins, He can not be ultimately resisted.

That is way, way, way off.

All are the children of Satan until we have faith in God and the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. When we are born again, that is when we become one of God's Own Children. There are a lot of born again Christians who are not obedient to God, brother. That is why Christ SAVES US.

You are deep into Calvinism I see.

Galatians 3:26
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

So, no Christ, no salvation. No faith, no Christ, no salvation.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2015

sdowney717 said:
You just do not believe what Christ has said about these things.
If you keep resisting what Christ said, what I say won't help either.

Good answer. I see that your doctrine is based upon nothing.

That's what I thought.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"Of course the Bible teaches clearly that a believer can fall away from the faith. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that those who have fallen away lose their salvation. That assumption is very common, but is not taught in Scripture.

Instead, the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5."

You missed my point completely. This isn't the issue. Obviously the Bible says that people fall away from the faith. The issue is to prove from Scripture that falling away from the faith results in loss of salvation.

That is NOT found anywhere in Scripture.

Jason, you need to read the above again. This is the part that you do not get and get lost on.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
NONE of these verses say that any of these people "forfeited their salvation". ZERO

Again, there is no evidence in any of these verses about the "potential" of losing/forfeiting their salvation.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
As for Ephesians 1:13-14:

What is a guarantee?

The SAME as a promise. Do you believe that God ever goes back on His promises? If so, that would make Him a liar. And the Bible says that God CANNOT lie: Heb 6:18

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”.

So show me any "fine print" in the verses I provided.

If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product.

This is a very poor example, for several reasons:
1. The sealing with the Holy Spirit isn't a "product"
2. The sealing with the Holy Spirit doesn't come from a store
3. The sealing with the Holy Spirit is FOR the day of redemption. When is that?

Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

Again, a very poor example, for several reasons:
1. There is no ability to throw away the sealing with the Holy Spirit
2. There is no time period attached to the sealing with the Holy Spirit
3. There is no relevance between staying on the bus with the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

There was no permanent promise of the Holy Spirit in the OT. Further, very few believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The verses I provided only apply to us in the NT.

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

See comment for 1 Sam 16:14

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Irrelevant in reference to the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

This has nothing to do with the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

See comment about Rom 4:11

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

See comment about Rom 4:11

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Why are you equating circumcision with the sealing with the Holy Spirit. They aren't even close.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Actually, the Holy Spirit is given to EVERYONE who has believed in Christ. Gal 3:2,5.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Careful reading of these verses shows that keeping His commandments is NOT a requirement for God giving another Comforter. Jesus said He will pray, and the Father 'SHALL GIVE YOU' another Comforter.

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.

Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preachedentered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 6:11-12
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Source Used:
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/

None of the rest of your Scriptures has any relevance to the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

Why would any believer try to use Scripture against itself in the first place? I really don't understand that.

Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 are very clear. They proclaim eternal security. None of the verses you provided refute what is taught in the verses I provided.

Don't forget that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). That also proclaims eternal security.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
The context of the sheep Jesus is talking about are those sheep who FOLLOW Him (See verse 27).

Seeing we do not see too many people walking perfectly like Jesus today and having no explanation as to how they got that way, we can come to the reasonable conclusion that those that FOLLOW Jesus are those who do so of their own free will. For man chooses Jesus of His own free will. Man is not being tricked or changed by God into believing in Christ. If such were the case, then this life would serve no real purpose as to WHY we are here. We are here to live out our FAITH in God. Man is not here to have be lucky if God chooses Him in having FAITH . All people can have faith in God and be saved.

...

Jesus is talking to the Jewish Pharisee's who do not believe that He is the Son of God, nor the Messiah. They do not believe in Jesus.

Let's keep this in context. Who is Jesus talking to? Who is He saying that are not His sheep and why?

Ask yourself the hard questions and read it in context. That helps.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 23, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I don't disagree that Christ died for the sins of the entire world. But that doesn't mean everyone is saved (As I am sure you will agree). The thing is that salvation is not in thinking we can just accept Christ and think we are saved from thereon after forever with no change in our life.

The ONLY way one can be saved is to believe in Christ. And since we are saved by grace, we are also kept by that very grace.

We didn't earn, nor deserve salvation. And we therefore cannot "earn" or deserve loss of salvation. That's what grace is all about.

Salvation.... True salvation is in abiding in the Son of God (Which results in good fruit within one's life)....

This is confusing relationship with fellowship. They are not the same.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 23, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
Nor does any Calvinist in the world believe that. And you darn well know it.

Your prior post sure comes to that conclusion.

The "reality" is that every Calvinist in history believes that believing on Christ is a condition for going to Heaven.

Then please explain how election is unconditional. Calvinists believe that God chooses who He will save apart from ANY conditions. So that clearly indicates that faith in Christ, a condition, isn't involved in election.

There is no excuse for any sinner who finds himself in Hell.

Yes, that is true. But the Calvinist doctrine of election CREATES that excuse.

His sins have "simply" found him out.

I believe the Bible's teaching that Christ died for all sin. Therefore, sin is NOT the reason anyone goes to hell.

Rev 20:15 give us the actual reason why people will go to hell: for not having eternal life. A gift of God that is free.

Sinners who find themselves in Hell are there not "simply" because they were not chosen to experience the irresistible drawing and calling of God.

That is surely what it is. Even though Calvinists will vigorously claim otherwise.

But since you said "simply" with quotes, what other reason are there for not being chosen to go to heaven? Your use of 'simply' indicates more reasons. What are they?

They are not there simply because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

But that surely be one reason, right?

They would be in Hell even if Jesus Christ had not died for their sins.

Uh, everyone would be in hell if that were true.

They would be in Hell even if there never been a Jesus Chris.

All of us would be there.

They are there because of their sins - plain and simple.

How does that work, since Christ died for sins "once for all".

It's no wonder you aren't ready to eat meat. Your still in need of the basic milk of the Word.

I will patiently wait for all my questions to be answered.

This is all just Christianity 101 stuff.

Not really.

What silly games you play here.

No games. Just very relevant questions to challenge your unbiblical theology.

The Calvinist doctrine of election is that God chooses to save unconditionally. So, what does that mean, except He chooses to save apart from any conditions.

And the ONLY condition for going to heaven is to believe in Christ.

So, Calvinists claim there are NO conditions for God choosing who to save.

The Bible claims there is ONE condition for being saved: faith in Christ. Paul's answer to the jailer.

You've got some 'splainin' to do.

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