Logical Problems with Calvinism

Jason0047 said:

Nowhere does the Bible say Jesus worshipped the Father.

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Jason0047 said:

No. Jesus changed the Law.

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Received said:

This goes back to the formula for salvation, if you will. And I've never held that man provides the necessary cause for his salvation, just like the person drowning can't swim himself to help by creating his own saving hand.

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FreeGrace2 said:

I'll let Scripture speak for itself regarding mercy and compassion.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

1. WHEN the wicked forsake their way, and,
2. WHEN he returns to the LORD, THEN
3. God will have compassion on him, because
4. God will abundantly pardon.

Please note the order here.

Compassion and pardon are conditioned on the wicked forsaking their way and returning to the LORD.

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Marvin Knox said:

AndOne:
I don't want to derail the thread either. But it's kind of hard for a person to trace down old posts as you intend to do on mine. So here is a cut and paste from a post or two I did in the "Ask A Calvinist" forum. You can just read them here and we'll let it go. I intend to go away here for a while.

Others can read this on Calvin's views on limited atonement and see how they compare to what is usually taught as being representative of what Calvin believed. I think you'll agree that they do not mesh very well. It will also show why I can identify with John Calvin's theology to a great degree and still reject so called limited atonement.

A FEW QUOTES BY JOHN CALVIN:

1 John 2:2--"he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world"----------------------- "CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. and in the goodness of God is OFFERED UNTO ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION, HIS BLOOD BEING SHED NOT FOR A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since without exception he SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope."

Mark 14:24: "This is my blood of the new testament, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY"..................... "The word 'many' DOES NOT MEAN A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE: he contrasts many with one as if to say that he would not be the Redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. No doubt that in speaking to a few Christ wished to make His teaching available to a larger number...So when we come to the holy table not only should the general idea come to our mind that THE WORLD IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST but also each should reckon to himself that his own sins are covered.

Romans 5:18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"Paul makes grace COMMON TO ALL MEN, not because it in fact EXTENDS TO ALL, but because IT IS OFFERED TO ALL. Although CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. AND IS OFFERED BY THE GOODNESS OF GOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION TO ALL MEN, yet not all receive him"

Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564":
"I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat....

****Mark 14:24 passage:
COMMENTARY ON A HARMONY OF THE EVANGELISTS, MATTHEW, MARK, AND LUKE, BY JOHN CALVIN
TRANSLATED FROM THE ORIGINAL LATIN, AND COLLATED WITH THE AUTHOR'S FRENCH VERSION, VOLUME THIRD BY THE REV. WILLIAM PRINGLE
CHRISTIAN CLASSICS ETHEREAL LIBRARY -- GRAND RAPIDS, MI

****Romans 5:18 passage:
COMMENTARIES ON THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE ROMANS
BY JOHN CALVIN
TRANSLATED AND EDITED BY THE REV. JOHN OWEN, VICAR OF THRUSSINGTON, LEICESTERSHIRE
CHRISTIAN CLASSICS ETHEREAL LIBRARY GRAND RAPIDS, MI

****Concerning Calvin’s will:
History of the Christian Church, Volume VIII: Modern Christianity. “The Swiss Reformation”
§ 165. Calvin’s Last Will, and Farewells.

****Regarding the 1 John 2:2 passage the best I can do is give you the reference that I have. I do not have a reference from the works of Calvin himself. Perhaps you can better research it out better than I was able to.

****Dr. Augustus H. Strong, in his standard Systematic Theology Vol. II, Doctrine of Salvation, page 778, quotes from “CALVIN'S LATER COMMENTS”

Here are a few more things to consider (from the same Calvin source as before (different volumes).

Concerning John 1.29 “And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race… and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God…Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Concerning John 3:14-16 “…that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish…And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life…”

Concerning John 16:8-11 “…Under the term world are, I think, included not only those who would be truly converted to Christ, but hypocrites and reprobates.”

Concerning Gal. 5:12 “His indignation proceeds still farther, and he prays for destruction on those impostors by whom the Galatians had been deceived. The word, "cut off," appears to be employed in allusion to the circumcision which they pressed. "They tear the church for the sake of circumcision: I wish they were entirely cut off." Chrysostom favors this opinion. But how can such an imprecation be reconciled with the mildness of an apostle, who ought to wish that all should be saved, and that not a single person should perish? So far as men are concerned, I admit the force of this argument; for it is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world.”

Concerning Col. 1:14 “He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated.”

Frankly Calvin was a bit ambiguous on this particular doctrine in his writings over the years. He seems to have changed his mind in later years. Being willing to change your mind shows a great deal of character to me.

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Jason0047 said:

In Romans 3:11, Paul is referencing the heathen in Psalm 14:1-5. Paul's point of Romans 3 is that both the Jews and the Gentiles are both are on equal footing and in sin and can come to receive salvation and grace the same way by repenting and believing in Jesus Christ. However, Psalm 14 is not saying that all the heathens did not come to God, though. We know that Rahab joined God's people. We also know that the Ninevites had believed God by repenting at the preaching of Jonah. The point is that Psalm 14:1-5 is saying that the majority of the heathen did not follow God. Paul references this Old Testament text as a part of his argument in Romans 3. So Romans 3:11 cannot support the belief that it is talking about ALL people. For we clearly know that this is not the case according to the context that Paul was referencing.


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FreeGrace2 said:

From post #698:
Hammster said:
"With the new heart, a man freely believes. He must give a new heart because with the heart of stone, he will stay in his wicked ways."

My question back to him:
"How come there are believers, with a new heart, who stay in their wicked ways? 2 Cor 12:20 is an example. So was King Saul."

Hammster, could you address this question, please?

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Received said:

To offer salvation. I'm not following the implication of the question.

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Received said:

That people were shutting down the Kingdom of God by their awful characters. It's probably as much about bad character as the former.

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Jason0047 said:

There is no use defending what you think might have happened. We don't have a time machine. Whether it was true or not, there is documentation of Calvin setting out to convict a man so as to give him the death penalty. If it is true, then you are following a person who could potentially not be of God. For Christians are not supposed to take lives. ...

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Received said:

That's what the verse says.

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Jason0047 said:

But we do this for the creator of the Universe. The Son of God (who gave Himself as a sacrifice for us) is God and the Creator of the Universe....

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Hammster said:

Which is odd because I asked you who else teaches your view of hell and you referenced four different people. I remember Dave Hunt being one. So I guess you're a Huntist.

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Jason0047 said:

I see Calvinism as being evil. For if man is not responsible for his choice in accepting or rejecting God, then you place the origin of evil as if it was by God's design. Yes, I am aware you believe in some other lighter version of Calvinism, but that still doesn't erase the many problems inherent within it, though. ...

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