Logical Problems with Calvinism

Jason0047 said:

I believe your avoidance of the questions answers what I needed to know.

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You can't say that, however, after you tried to change the subject. And, no, you didn't "need to know" any of that, not in order to understand the point that had been made about hearing and faith.

Hammster said:

This is just another reply that has no bearing on what I said. Most of your replies follow that pattern.

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Yes it does have to do with what you said. You are saying that i believe that coming to God in faith does not involve God in any way. However, I do not believe that.

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Jason0047 said:

I believe your avoidance of the questions answers what I needed to know. I say this not to wound you, dear sir; But simply because you are not understanding the basics of the English language that I have put forth in my one post to you (Unless of course you ignored what I wrote).

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I understand what you say. It's just that it seems your attention span is such that you cannot stay on topic.

Jason0047 said:

Yes it does have to do with what you said. You are saying that i believe that coming to God in faith does not involve God in any way. However, I do not believe that.

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No, that's not what I said. You believe that the natural man can just decide to believe the gospel of his own volition without any supernatural work of God in the person.

Hammster said:

So again, faith comes by having faith.

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What in the world??!! I just explained your own error. Faith comes by hearing/believing. That really isn't a difficult concept.

O, the lengths you guys will go to deny God's sovereignty in election.

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Rather, the lengths "you guys" go to deny what has actually been posted, in order to distract from what "you guys" cannot defend against.

Albion said:

No one was asking you to sift back through anything to hunt for anything. I identified the posts by number for you. But I'll just chalk it up to you not having an answer after you've gone to all this work to avoid answering.

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I made clear from my last response to you that I don't know what verse you've been referring to. And it seems you still don't want to tell me.

I'm not trying to avoid anything. But your reluctance to just tell me again is annoying. Since you SAID you wanted an answer.

So, if your statement is sincere, please cite the verse and repeat the question.

If you ignore this request, then I'll know that your question wasn't sincere.

FreeGrace2 said:

What in the world??!! I just explained your own error. Faith comes by hearing/believing. That really isn't a difficult concept..

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I don't want to interfere, but I am interested in what's being said here...and it seems to me that Hammster clarified the issue perfectly well in several of his posts, including his last one (1024). It may be that you are currently scanning posts made prior to that one, but I'd be grateful if you'd address the idea referred to in 1024.

FreeGrace2 said:

I made clear from my last response to you that I don't know what verse you've been referring to.

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You refused to read the post, didn't you say? Too far back for you, or something like that???

FreeGrace2 said:

What in the world??!! I just explained your own error. Faith comes by hearing/believing. That really isn't a difficult concept.

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FreeGrace2 said:

Faith comes by believing.

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So faith comes by having faith. That's your position. I don't know why you think you are saying something different.

Jesus First said:

Brother Knox,

I originally offered an objection to your point from Romans 8 when you wrote:

"We know that everyone does not receive this inward call because all who receive this “call” are in turn justified." --end of your quote----

My objection with your argument (respectfully) was that the text does not substantiate your argument. Romans 8:28 doesn't promise that those who love God today will love God tomorrow. Your point reads more into the text than exists. We have Liberty from God to draw out what is stated; but not to add
additional definition.


There is danger in restricting God to a predefined theological box. Romans 8:29-30 is true only for those who actively love God in the present (v. 28).

Too often Romans 8:28-30 is used as a proof text for an automatic glorification without acknowledging that the promises provided in the chain are conditional on the first link of loving Christ progressively (verse 28).

Romans 8:28-30 supports the doctrine known as conditional security. Those who continue to endure in the faith until the end will be glorified. God is always faithful and will provide the grace and faith necessary for us to endure as long as we don't turn out backs and deny Him.

I hope I answered you question

To God be the glory and to His dear Son, Jesus Christ!

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About our being able to love God, this comes to mind. Note verse 10.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
We did not love God. He loved us first. And because of the great love he had for us, He manifested that Love by sending His Son Christ that
'we' might live through Him.

Now seeing that we are called by His grace since He has foreknown us, and that John is writing to saved persons, it stands to reason this is written to 'us' whom He has called to be the saved. And no one of the world outside of the church would read this and have an understanding.
John is writing to the 'beloved' , which is the church, those whom God loved with a great love and made them alive together with Christ.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

For confirmation to whom John is writing these verses, the 'us', scriptures goes on and says like this

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

And of course this
1 John 3:1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

And
1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Prior to God loving us and making us born again regenerated, we hated God and Christ. Evidence of that is not only found in scripture but also throughout the human experience of those of the world.

Albion said:

I don't want to interfere, but I am interested in what's being said here...and it seems to me that Hammster clarified the issue perfectly well in several of his posts, including his last one (1024). It may be that you are currently scanning posts made prior to that one, but I'd be grateful if you'd address the idea referred to in 1024.

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This is his remark to Jason:
"No, that's not what I said. You believe that the natural man can just decide to believe the gospel of his own volition without any supernatural work of God in the person."

My view is that God has already done the "supernatural work" so that no one has any excuse not to recognize that God exists and should be thankful to Him. Exactly what Rom 1;19,20 says.

God has revealed Himself, and His attributes. The very creation is a supernatural work of God.

Because God has already made the "first move", and not only revealed Himself through creation, but has offered to mankind the free gift of eternal life, all man can do is receive the gift. That's not synergism. Any more than the nutty idea that to accept any gift offered means that the receiver helped in getting the gift.

By the very definition of 'gift', receiving a gift is non-meritorious. iow, the receiver didn't do anything to receive the gift.

Albion said:

You refused to read the post, didn't you say? Too far back for you, or something like that???

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No, I never said I refused to read all the posts. I did look at the first one listed, and no verse was mentioned.

But again, it seems quite clear that there is an extreme reluctance on your part to just CITE the verse and repeat the question that you asked.

So, apparently your question wasn't all that sincere.

Hammster said:

So faith comes by having faith. That's your position.

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No, I made my position very clear. I'm really sorry that you haven't been able to understand it.

I don't know why you think you are saying something different.

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I don't know why my statement isn't clear to you.

So I'll just ask you directly (let's see if you'll actually answer a question)

Faith comes by hearing. That's Biblical. The word for 'hearing' means more than just the auditory stimulation. It includes comprehension and acceptance of what was heard.

Therefore, to 'hear' means to 'believe' what was heard; in this case, the gospel.

This is the Greek word for 'hear' in Rom 10:10 -

akouō
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
2b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
2c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
3a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one’spresence
3b) to get by hearing learn
3c) a thing comes to one’s ears, to find out, learn
3d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
3e) to comprehend, to understand

In the context of Rom 10, 3e is the meaning.

Here is the question:

Do you believe that faith comes by believing the gospel?

If not, please explain why not. Thanks.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, I never said I refused to read all the posts. I did look at the first one listed, and no verse was mentioned.

But again, it seems quite clear that there is an extreme reluctance on your part to just CITE the verse and repeat the question that you asked.

So, apparently your question wasn't all that sincere.

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Amuse yourself with that excuse if you choose. I'm not sincere and Hammster doesn't understand.

This kind of talk doesn't hurt my feelings, if that's the intent. More important is the fact that you still aren't giving an answer after all of this.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, I made my position very clear. I'm really sorry that you haven't been able to understand it.


I don't know why my statement isn't clear to you.

So I'll just ask you directly (let's see if you'll actually answer a question)

Faith comes by hearing. That's Biblical. The word for 'hearing' means more than just the auditory stimulation. It includes comprehension and acceptance of what was heard.

Therefore, to 'hear' means to 'believe' what was heard; in this case, the gospel.

This is the Greek word for 'hear' in Rom 10:10 -

akouō
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
2b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
2c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
3a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one’spresence
3b) to get by hearing learn
3c) a thing comes to one’s ears, to find out, learn
3d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
3e) to comprehend, to understand

In the context of Rom 10, 3e is the meaning.

Here is the question:

Do you believe that faith comes by believing the gospel?

If not, please explain why not. Thanks.

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Do I believe that belief comes by believing the gospel?

No. That notion makes no sense.

Albion said:

Amuse yourself with that excuse if you choose. I'm not sincere and Hammster doesn't understand.

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I chose to answer your question, but it is now clear that your statement about your sincerity is true.

This kind of talk doesn't hurt my feelings, if that's the intent. More important is the fact that you still aren't giving an answer after all of this.

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Because you haven't re-asked the question. So don't blame me for not answering. Blame yourself. Just give me the verse and the question that goes with it. That's all I need.

Hammster said:

Do I believe that belief comes by believing the gospel?

No. That notion makes no sense.

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Here is what does make sense.

Believing the gospel IS your belief. Do you believe that? If not, please explain why not.

FreeGrace2 said:

Here is what does make sense.

Believing the gospel IS your belief. Do you believe that? If not, please explain why not.

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That question makes sense? To who?

But believing the gospel is the result of faith.

You said the following in your original post to me.

Jesus First said:

You are stating an assumption as if an established fact. Romans 8 doesn't promise that all who are called will be glorified. Please provide exegetical proof for your assumption. We have been commissioned by God to "rightly divide the Word". There are rules of grammar that must be followed to arrive at a correct interpretation.

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Exegetical proof of my "assumption" follows. Likely it will be in two posts since you’ve opened up a very big subject here.

There are not only rules of grammar to be followed here - which I do. There is also context to consider when giving an exegetical explanation of a passage. It seems to me that you are violating that very important principle with your objection to my post.

Time and space would fail us if I were to cover context thoroughly. I’ll have to trust that you will go back and read the entire chapter.

Paul from start to finish is talking to a group of people who are saved and who love the Lord. Although he starts out addressing these saints as “you” - most of the time he includes himself in the group with the near constant use of the word “us” throughout the chapter.

He starts what we call chapter 8 on the heels of his explanation of salvation through trust in Christ only - apart from keeping the law. He just got through telling these saints about his personal struggles against the flesh and how it was that there were two natures at war within himself.

Because of the fact that he was a new creation in Christ and not just that old sinful man within him - he starts chapter 8 with the statement that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

He talks about how Christ is in us and that we are alive because of that even though our flesh may be, as it were, dead in sin. He says that we are “children of God” and “heirs of God” by virtue of the Holy Spirit who has been given us as a pledge that we will make it through in the end. He talks about how “we” ourselves have the first fruits of what is to come exhibited in our lives even as we wait for our final release from this sinful fleshly body.

He assures us that the Holy Spirit is actually interceding for us with our Heavenly Father according to the will of God. He even tells “us” that we call Him “Daddy” because He has so accepted us in the beloved.

It is in this context of reassurance that we will all be OK in the end that he starts his marvelous paragraph of assurance in verse 28.

After assuring us of why we can bank on making it through OK in the end (a point that you seem to have missed out on) he continues with the use of the word “us” until the end of the chapter. In that way he brackets the so called “golden chain” passage so that there can be no mistake that he means everything said in that passage to be taken to concern “us”.

He wraps up this marvelous explanation concerning why we are assured of our salvation with his marvelous closing paragraph in chapter 8.

“37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

You seem to have missed the entire point of the reason for his giving the golden chain of events to us in the first place. That reason is to assure “us” that God will bring us through in the end without condemnation. After all He is the one who began the process on our behalf in "eternity past" as they say.

To sum all this “context” up - Paul is telling us in an unmistakable way exactly how things work in our salvation from start to finish. He starts with eternity past and ends with eternity future.

After all this – you miss the entire point of what God is telling us – try to turn it back on itself, and turn it upside down - and deny every point that God has been making in chapter 8 (if not in the book of Romans altogether).

Now that we are assured of talking about vs. 28-30 in “context” I will address your objection to my saying that all those called (us) are justified.

It will likely be a bit before I can get to it though. Maybe it will be this evening. If not this evening then perhaps tomorrow.

Hammster said:

No, that's not what I said. You believe that the natural man can just decide to believe the gospel of his own volition without any supernatural work of God in the person.

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No, that is not what I said. You are placing those words upon me. The words of the gospel are spiritual words and they are life. God the Father draws a person. The Lord makes it possible by His power that a person can repent. Without these things, then men would be doomed. But God does not make these thing exclusive to only some special club, though. Salvation is open and freely given to all people. Oh, and if a man repents of his sins and believes the gospel he is no longer aligning with sin but he aligning with the faith or that which is spiritual (Whereby God would then change their heart and spirit).

In fact, the Scriptures say "circumcise your own heart" to the Israelites. Circumcision of the heart was something God also did for the Israelite, as well. But in that context: God circumcising a person's heart was the Lord regenerating a person. To circumcise your heart was to have a broken and contrite heart about your sin before God and seek Him for your salvation.


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