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So, please tell the thread; who thinks it takes goodness to believe. Can you name even 1 person? If not, then you're just pushing a fallacy. Or fantasy.“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."”
Mark 7:21-23 NASB
http://bible.com/100/mrk.7.21-23.nasb
Yeah, man is really good enough to believe.
“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."”
Mark 7:21-23 NASB
http://bible.com/100/mrk.7.21-23.nasb
Yeah, man is really good enough to believe.
So, please tell the thread; who thinks it takes goodness to believe. Can you name even 1 person? If not, then you're just pushing a fallacy. Or fantasy.
Let's take the example of Pharaoh as a "vessel of wrath". This man was evil to begin with, he enslaved the Hebrews, and had them mistreated daily. Then he was given multiple opportunities to repent as the plagues progressed. But he continued to harden his heart, until God hardened his heart. So his destruction was not accidental by any means, but by the same token he could have repented had he decided to do so. That was the whole point of bringing down those plagues progressively. Every sinner has multiple opportunities to repent and believe the Gospel. But when a person rejects Christ again and again, there is no more grace and only wrath.Given the four points you yourself listed it is certainly a logical conclusion to make. But regardless "a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction" can only mean one thing. They didn't get that way by accident.
Certainly. Study Saul the persecutor of the Church, and executioner of innocents, who was converted on the road to Damascus. Study the thief on the cross, who was railing against Christ to begin with, and then believed on Him wholeheartedly.Do you believe an evil heart will believe?
Calvinist ignore the power of God? We are the ones that proclaim that one must be born again. That is supernatural.You've missed the point. All men are indeed sinners by birth and by choice. It is the power of the Gospel that penetrates their hearts and minds, while it is the power of the Holy Spirit which convicts sinners that they are indeed on their way to Hell, while convincing them that Christ is the only Way to Heaven. Calvinists ignore the supernatural power of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit in bringing sinners to the Saviour.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)
For the word of God is quick [living], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him [the Holy Spirit] with whom we have to do. (Heb 4:12,13)
Of course He referred to some as not His. Not everyone is.This is just an opinion. And not a correct one.
Even though He very clearly referred to some as "not of MY sheep". They weren't all His. He very plainly said so.
ONLY IF Jesus had said that He would die for HIS sheep would Calvinism have a point. But He didn't, and Calvinism doesn't have a point.
You think man is good enough because believing is a good thing. Since this can be done in the flesh (in your view), one doesn't need a new heart in order to believe.Where does one come up with the notion that believing requires one to be "good enough"?? I've never said that. So where does that erroneous view come from?
I don't think man is "good enough" to believe, because I don't think believing in Christ requires goodness on man's part.
Believing in Christ requires conviction of one's sinfulness and helplessness in meeting God's standard of perfection.
Arrogant moralists think they are good enough to meet God's standards. Like the Pharisees.
otoh, the tax collector realized his sinfulness and asked for mercy. Do you think that required "goodness"?
You. So no fallacy.So, please tell the thread; who thinks it takes goodness to believe. Can you name even 1 person? If not, then you're just pushing a fallacy. Or fantasy.
An evil heart can please God? Mkay.Certainly. Study Saul the persecutor of the Church, and executioner of innocents, who was converted on the road to Damascus. Study the thief on the cross, who was railing against Christ to begin with, and then believed on Him wholeheartedly.
Where does the Bible teach that man receives a new heart by "casting away all his iniquity"?This is exactly why man needs a new heart and new spirit by casting away all his iniquity.
All human hearts are evil. The Bible says so.Do you believe an evil heart will believe?
Absolutely NOT. Only God gives a new heart, which is another way to communicate regeneration. Man has no part in regeneration just as man has no part in his salvation. Man can only receive them.Do you not believe man must cast away his iniquities to receive a new heart, from which then, comes good?
Don't be too hard on him. Your view is pretty close.Where does the Bible teach that man receives a new heart by "casting away all his iniquity"?
You are not alone in that claim. That is not original with Calvinism. It's Biblical.Calvinist ignore the power of God? We are the ones that proclaim that one must be born again. That is supernatural.
Thanks for agreeing with me. Jesus differentiated between those sheep that were His and those that were not His. And He SAID He would die for THE sheep. Not just some of them, as Calvinists think.Of course He referred to some as not His. Not everyone is.
There is no need to try to put false words into my mouth. I have already explained that the issue isn't about "goodness", so your comment is totally disingenuous.You think man is good enough because believing is a good thing.
This is correct. One needs a new heart (regeneration, indwelling of the Holy Spirit) in order to fulfill God's will for our lives.Since this can be done in the flesh (in your view), one doesn't need a new heart in order to believe.
You continue to show that your memory is short. You can't seem to remember all that's said to you, so you take each statement as independent of others. This is probably why you don't understand Calvinism. You certainly don't understand what I've said in the last page or two.Thanks for agreeing with me. Jesus differentiated between those sheep that were His and those that were not His. And He SAID He would die for THE sheep. Not just some of them, as Calvinists think.
Total fallacy. I DO NOT believe that. And I've posted that a number of times. Your claim of what I believe falls into the category of arrogance to assume that you can read my mind.You. So no fallacy.
Your memory appears to be too short. This has been done. But you'll continue to reject it because you think there's enough goodness in the old heart to submit to God.There is no need to try to put false words into my mouth. I have already explained that the issue isn't about "goodness", so your comment is totally disingenuous.
This is correct. One needs a new heart (regeneration, indwelling of the Holy Spirit) in order to fulfill God's will for our lives.
When will Calvinists prove from Scripture that man needs a new heart in order to believe? The claim is made often enough, but where's the evidence from Scripture?
When an evil heart believes what God says, then YES, God is pleased.An evil heart can please God? Mkay.
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