Logical Problems with Calvinism

Hoghead1 said:

It is true that the doctrine of election is essentially an extra-biblical teaching that contradicts Scripture in many respects. Hence, the best place to look for it is in the church fathers such ss Augustine and Calvin.

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Regardless of what one finally concludes about the matter, I don't think we should say, flatly, that it's an 'extra-biblical teaching.' Not when we have Jesus calling his followers by that term ("elect") and him describing them as safe from anyone taking them away from him. The issue has to be addressed with much more care IMHO.

Thursday said:

The bible tells us that God wants all men to be saved.

Do you believe that's what God wants?

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What God wants, God gets. 'Will' means just that. It will happen. Will doesn't mean maybe or might. Will means it will be. God is sure of his wills cause he is the creator. You say God will save all as if the nonelects are included. Nonelects means just that too. What does nonelected, unregerates and predistine part you not understand?

tulipbee said:

What God wants, God gets. 'Will' means just that. It will happen. Will doesn't mean maybe or might. Will means it will be. God is sure of his wills cause he is the creator. You say God will save all as if the nonelects are included. Nonelects means just that too. What does nonelected, unregerates and predistine part you not understand?

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I don't say God will save all, I say that the bible says that God wants all men to be saved.

Do you agree that this is what the bible says?

The bible also tells us that if we leave God he will leave us. He wants us to be saved, but he allows us to choose to reject him.

That's what the bible teaches. What do you teach?

FreeGrace2 said:

I challenge you to prove your claim. It is below ludicrous.


So, we're really no different, huh.


Can you back up your claim by citing any specific non Calvinist who questions and tests God? I mean, name the person and provide their questions or testing. Or your claim is simply another made up fiction.

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I don't challenge cause I'm as guilty as you are. I procliam the gospel, witnessing the truths, to the unregerates anyway cause God intructed me to do so anyway. I don't question my savior why like you do. Your own theology are full of man made trickeries that leads to epic failures. God causes repentance to his elected children. The calvinist procliams Jesus Christ

Thursday said:

I don't say God will save all, I say that the bible says that God wants all men to be saved.

Do you agree that this is what the bible says?

The bible also tells us that if we leave God he will leave us. He wants us to be saved, but he allows us to choose to reject him.

That's what the bible teaches. What do you teach?

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If God does the choosing while men do not then God got what He wanted. God really really really IS in charge as calvinism stated cause it is written.

tulipbee said:

Its man procliaming the gospel backed by God's Word. God's word is in plain view. It's accessible. You can access God's words by reading the proof texts from the calvinism by cracking open the book and reading them on your own. Only the regenerates will understand God's words. The general calls and effectual calls are the same. One is read like fiction and one is read like truth. Self-salvation and free wiil is fiction. You see it as fiction just as God wanted.

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You reject God's word and instead lean on the understanding of men.

1) Does God want all men to be saved?

2) Does God judge each man impartially?

3) Does a man reap what he sows?

4) Is a man justified by works and not by faith alone?

5) Can a man shipwreck his faith through sin?

True Science said:

I said I'm finished with the debating on here so I'm going to try to respond in a way that doesn't provoke more debate on this thread.

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I see a healthy, respectful, and loving debate of the Scriptures to be a profitable thing. It is only when others respond in such a way that is mean and cruel that I do not find to be a good thing. Then again, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually in favor with God and or speaks according to His Word.

1) I'm agnostic on the Flat Earth thing. I'm open to it. More open then to the Globe. I'm very anti-Heliocentricism. I believe NASA uses fake images and footage, the moon landing was a hoaxing, they can't go to space and do the things they say they can. I haven't seen curvature in a plane. My wife recently took a flight and she took pictures of outside the window, all pictures have zero curvature except for maybe one that looks like it may have slight but it could just be an illusion. Google Earth flight at 40000 ft. has clear unmistakable significant curvature. But there's a video on YouTube of a rocket with a non-fisheye lens camcorder and it goes up over 120000 ft. and there is no curvature. Anyway, I don't see why it isn't likely they lie to us about this too if they lie to us about pretty much everything else. Flat Earth could be wrong though. But I have learned about so many things that are wrong with science and how unreliable it is, I don't see any reason to trust it. and I definitely am not going to let it shake my faith in God's Word.

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No. This is not up for debate. Please do not take this the wrong way, but it is absolutely silly to suggest the Earth is even remotely flat in this day and age. You can prove that the Earth is round yourself just by getting in a plane and flying around the Earth from North to South and from West to East (And or in a diagnal direction on a compass if you like). Take a compass with you when you fly. You are able to return to the same spot just by traveling in one direction (like North, South, East, or West). If you do not have the money to fly, then talk to pilots and people who have flown around the world multiple times. This is absolutely silly and ridiculous to suggest otherwise. In fact, you can begin your journey around the world airfare here (to prove that the Earth is indeed round yourself):

http://www.airtreks.com

I mean, if the Earth was flat, don't you think people today who have traveled all over this world would have discovered the ends of the Earth where they could not go?

In addition, you can also look at the moon with high powered telescopes and see that it is indeed a round planet that rotates and it not a flat surface.

Also, the Bible supports a round Earth. For one, a reading of Luke 17:31-34 is best understood when understanding that the Earth is a sphere. In addition, those verses that appear to speak of the Earth being flat is a misunderstanding on the part of the reader on what the text is actually saying. The Bible has to be read in context and understand that the writer had written from an observational perspective at times. In other words, it would be like someone saying, "the sun sets." However, the sun does not actually set. It is only from our perspective that the sun appears to "set" or "or touch the ground." Although, the Bible is primarily a literal book with historical records of people, places, and things, we also have to recognize that the Bible also has Figures of Speech within it.

2) I'm merely showing how the ways of the world philosophy do not work. What is called progressive really isn't progressing to working society. As Christians who believe the Bible we shouldn't embrace, support, and sync our faith with worldly ideas like this. for the most part I don't think this can happen, especially now when it looks close to the Beast rising to full power and the Tribulation happening, but it has in the past, but i'm not 100% against if it is clear God has given a society of this world into our hands that we should not take it over and run it by biblical principles, God's Law, a theocracy. Anyway, when the Millennial theocratic reign comes everyone will for sure see how a Torah government under the King of Glory Yeshua is the only government that can perfectly work, it is the only way of life that perfectly lines up with God's created world reality.

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Uh, no. The Torah was for Israel. There will be no animal sacrifices in the Millennium as some believe. There is no purpose for those sacrifices anymore. The sacrifices in the OT had pointed to what was to come. We don't need any more shadows or types. That is all a part of the Old Covenant. We are now in the New Covenant whereby Christ is our perfect sacrifice and sole Mediator between God and man. There will be no more priests anymore. That is why the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom. The Old Priesthood is no more along with the Torah Law that went with it. For even the moral laws have changed because there are no death penalties given directly by God within His Word if they were to break them.

3) Scripture itself contradicts Sola Scriptura. Just like it contradicts inerrancy in the copies of Scripture. One example is the issue of the canon. There is no internal support for it in the Bible itself and there are blatantly things in it that contradict it. Like check out what I wrote in response to a guy trying to explain away what Jude is clearly doing in his epistle:

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No. If the Bible contradicted itself, then we could not trust it. For if one word was not true in your Bible, then what makes a person to trust the rest of the words in the Bible? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Also, there are many verses that support Sola Scriptura.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/100040-biblical-defense-sola-scriptura.html

Again, not believing in Sola Scriptura is the problem with many religions today that are false. Many of these false religions add another holy book or some kind of church tradition that is not mentioned in the Scriptures. Also, no other holy book like the Bible on Earth that has more evidence confirming it's truthfulness and accuracy unlike any other book in human history.

Here is a list of evidences that back up the Bible (that you will not find for any other supposedly holy book):

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-list-of-biblical-evidences.7833944/

"4. No it's not a logical fallacy and giant leap in logic. When you see them quoting and using the same
language as these books, which many scholars recognize, it is not a giant leap in logic. And it is pure
conjecture upon your part to say that Jude's quote of 1Enoch was just some oral tradition that was true
which got added to the book later. You have zero evidence for this I'm sure. It's only something you
conjured up in your mind or got from others who did so to reason away this blatant quote of 1Enoch and
these blatant allusions to it of him, which aren't even comparable to the quotations of pagan writings by
Paul. Let me now show how illogical and nonsensical it is to believe what you do about Jude's epistle:

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The book of Enoch is unreliable and has many problems. For one, it teaches a form of mysticism in the Bible and it does not line up with the Bible in any way. Also, nowhere does the Holy Scriptures actually say they are quoting from the book of Enoch. Only a similar saying appears in Enoch, which is not any real proof at all. Anyone could have written a book and put a quote that is similar to what God's Word says and try to pass it off as a holy book (When it was clearly not). The key is to test the book of Enoch and see if it is trust worthy and reliable as the Word of God we have today (Which is known as the Bible). On the contrary, there is evidence against the book of Enoch being a reliable book of God that would line up with the Holy Scriptures.

4) I believe most Christians throughout history have misunderstood the NT, especially Paul, which Peter actually warns about, by looking at it from their gentile presuppositions and not being grounded enough in the OT.

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Stop right here. Please do not tell me you believe Paul was not an apostle of God who did not write Holy Scripture. Is that what you are saying?
There is no contradiction in what Paul and Jesus said. Anyways, Ebionites deny the works of Paul, my friend (And such a belief is not Biblical).

They read the NT too much into the OT and their NT interpretations are based on not being familiar with OT and its Hebraic culture, thought and idioms. I am working on things and have already put out some things to correct the anti-Torah misunderstandings out there. One example you gave. The eye for an eye thing in the Torah was originally about the judicial system, not personal vendetta.

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No. Read Leviticus 24:17-21. It is clearly in reference to matters of executing justice. There is no mistake in what it was saying in that part of the text that Jesus quoted from the Law. We see Jesus also not condemn a woman caught in the act of adultery, too (When Jesus should have condemned her by the Old Law).

That is how it was being misapplied in Yeshua's day. Even the OT tells us not to quickly have a bad temper, render evil for evil, and tells us to love our neighbours and even enemies. And yes the Law has changed, and it changed before even the NT. In the OT we see the Letter of Law was changed before the Law was given, at the time the time the Law was given and after the Law was given. But by I do not believe the Law can be changed in such a way as to contradict the Spirit/principles/character of God as revealed in the Law of Moses. I do not believe the Law has been completely done away with or that it has been radically changed beyond recognition in the Law for the New Covenant for today.

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The moral laws of God have not changed for the most part. That is the heart of both the Old Law and the New Law. However, the ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath observance, the sacrificial laws involving animals, and the dietary laws have changed.

(5) Well whatever you want to term it. But the text you quoted is talking about kidnapping. When Israel bought slaves from other nations it is highly doubtful they didn't ever buy kidnapped people. At least those people being in a nation that has right laws to deal with bondservants would be a lot better for them than being sold to some gentile nation without God's Law. Anyway, if you think this capitalist atheist way things are now is really better than a Torah government with righteous slave laws in an agrarian society, then I don't know how you can believe Scripture that says God's Law converts the soul, enlightens the heart and is perfection and liberty. The societies are a mess we live in. All the details in Scripture about what Christ's Kingdom will be like are a theocratic Torah worldwide rule. And the evil nations tat went against God's people it says will be put in forced slavery to them.

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Uh, no. No evil nations will be in put into some kind of forced slavery to God's rule. The wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment. Before that time, they will be in a place called "hades." This is more like a really bad prison in the after-life and not a place of fiery torture.

Paul clearly tells slaves to obey their masters and work for them as they would the Lord and doesn't discriminate between who was stolen or who sold himself. Even sends a slave back to his master.

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But this is Early Modern English. The word "slave" has a completely different meaning in our culture today. You say that word and people instantly think of the slaves from the Civil War or the Israelite slaves in Egypt.

"Bond Servant" would be the more accurate words to use here.
As for Paul's words on slaves obeying their masters: Again, these are bond servants who willingly placed themselves into a position for various reasons. Also, bond servants have rights, whereas slaves do not have any rights (and are considered as property). So I would again, speak more appropriately to the time that we live in. For back in the day, the word "gay" used to mean somebody that was happy. However, today, you have to be careful when you say that word because it has a completely different meaning now.

Thanks for the article. I'll have to check it out sometime.

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Your welcome. I hope you find it helpful.
May God bless you.
And may God's love and peace shine upon you today, too.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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tulipbee said:

I don't question my savior why like you do.

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So, please cite any post where I've questions my Savior, as you claim here.

Are you aware that LYING is wickedness? Stop it.

Your own theology are full of man made trickeries that leads to epic failures.

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Really? Please cite ANY of these so-called trickeries then.

God causes repentance to his elected children.

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Please cite any Scripture that says so.

The calvinist procliams Jesus Christ

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That's about all that Calvinism has going for it.

sdowney717 said:

If God has hardened someone, then of course, that person has no hope of believing by faith in Christ, unless God has mercy on them so that they are granted repentance to have faith in Christ who is the way, truth and the life.

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First. There are very few times in the Bible that God has hardened anyone's heart. Those few occurrences were during major turmoil for the Israelites. So I am not understanding your reference to hardening hearts because I don't think that happens much at all.

Second. I'm not understanding the grant mercy through repentance because we come to God in faith and faith is by hearing the Word of God.

Is there even an example in the New Testament of God hardening a heart. I can't think of any

Can you be more specific w your examples?

ToBeLoved said:

First. There are very few times in the Bible that God has hardened anyone's heart. Those few occurrences were during major turmoil for the Israelites. So I am not understanding your reference to hardening hearts because I don't think that happens much at all.

Second. I'm not understanding the grant mercy through repentance because we come to God in faith and faith is by hearing the Word of God.

Is there even an example in the New Testament of God hardening a heart. I can't think of any

Can you be more specific w your examples?

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The concept of God hardening a heart comes from the story of Pharaoh. However, as the story unfolds, we find Pharaoh hardening his own heart in the first 5 plagues by continually saying "no" to Moses. The way God hardened his heart was in allowing him to live longer than he deserved.

We see this in Ex 9:15,16 - 15 “For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16 “But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

The longer Pharaoh lived, the more time he had to harden his own heart. That's how God hardened his heart.

But, Calvinists love to think that God turned him against Him. Which is ridiculous. God never causes anyone to turn away from Him. In fact, He commands everyone everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30