Logical Problems with Calvinism

Marvin Knox said:

I agree.

Man is a free moral agent - a lot like God is. But not exactly like God is.

There is a vast difference between what choices a fallen man chooses to make and the ones a holy God makes. Our natures are quite a bit different from God's in this regard.

Perhaps they were more alike in the garden. But after the fall - not so much.

Also - the choices of man can be their choices even if they are predestined to happen by God.

We do choose how we will cooperate with God. That is true for saved and unsaved persons alike. We will all reap the consequences of how we cooperate with God.

I disagree.

God can do anything He wants in keeping with His nature.

There is nothing in scripture that says that coercion goes against God's nature. In fact He coerces His creation all the time - and it's illustrated all through the scriptures.

Obviously He wants a real relationship with men.

Obviously He can't do anything that is not just - because it goes against His nature.

Nor does anyone from the Calvinist side say that He does.

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If you go back and reread all my posts about Romans 1 you will see it completely undermines what you have said here. God clearly says he often wanted to gather Israel into his bosom but he could not because they were not willing. And for Calvinists God is only just nominally not actually. It is not the actual justice as revealed in Romans 1 and that God has put within our conscience that we know by nature.

Jason0047 said:

It is an assumption on your part that "free will" given to man was not a part of God's plan.

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You have not answered the question. If God is Sovereign and decrees a man to salvation and that man rejects, will that man be saved. If so, how?

What does "Rebirth", "Born Again", "Born from Above" or "Regeneration" Mean?

Cush said:

John 10:26 - "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Note the Scripture does not say you are not among my sheep BECAUSE you do not believe.

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So then it is not Faith Alone but Predestination Alone.

True Science said:

So then it is not Faith Alone but Predestination Alone.

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Slams head against the Keyboard.

"Calvinism leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part."

The whole point of Paul's argument is that we do not deserve God's grace. It was not merited. He did it freely without having to. So we cannot boast. This does not mean there are no required conditions to meet on our part to be saved. And we can boast, but only in the Lord, so there is boasting, but only in the Lord. According to you guys Zacchaeus was boasting and the Lord should have rebuked him for it instead of praising him.

Cush said:

Slams head against the Keyboard.

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Sir, you have ignored what we have covered from Romans 1. If you are right then the Scriptures contradict and Paul was an idiot who just made a lying argument to fluff up his Calvinism but really it has no meaning because what he said is actually not true. He just wanted to say that to make God look just and man look able and that this is required for justice in condemning man to work but it isn't really the case.

The Pharisees didn't even listen to Christ's teaching to learn from him and that is why were not of his sheep and couldn't believe. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. They wouldn't even hear it. Like how when Steven preached the Word and they closed their ears and rushed at him to kill him.

True Science said:

Calvinists do not believe they regenerate themselves. They believe they even need to be regenerated to believe.

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Yet, the Bible does not teach that one needs to be regenerated to believe.

So, why do they believe that?

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.

Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards."

Ok, first with the serious questions.

#1 The full effect of the fall is that human beings are unable to save themselves from the curse of sin. That's why God provides The Savior, who solved the sin problem.

#2 Yes, all men are born spiritually dead, at enmity with God.

#3 Yes, the nature of men from birth is a sinful state.

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Definitely! And because men are spiritually dead and at enmity with God they do not seek Him.

OK, now for the other ones.

#1 No.

#2 Maybe.

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A bird cannot fly until it has been healed.

He doesn't because he can't. What Calvinists seem to not understand is that it is God who does the new birthing, or regeneration. But God only regenerates those who believe. He doesn't regenerate unbelievers.

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I think this is only where we disagree, Ordo Salutis. The order of salvation. Those who WILL believe, not because they believed. We believe that God acts first with Predestination, Election, Calling, Regeneration and then men come in with Faith, Repentance and together by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Justification, Adoption, Sanctification, Perseverance and Glorification.

Also, your question is bogus. Man's nature isn't changed, as your question implies. Man is given a new nature by God, so that there is a struggle between them, as Paul described of himself in Romans 7 and also in Gal 5.

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You are correct. Poor choice of wording on my part. However, we are no longer governed (slaves) by our sinful nature, yet still susceptible to moments of weakness.

I guess most (all?) Calvinists assume that all non Calvinists think they regenerate themselves. Where does that idea come from?

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When you say that God regenerates those who believe, the assumption is that you believe God regenerates based on some past, current or future merit, including faith.

True Science said:

"Calvinism leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part."

The whole point of Paul's argument is that we do not deserve God's grace. It was not merited. He did it freely without having to. So we cannot boast. This does not mean there are no required conditions to meet on our part to be saved. And we can boast, but only in the Lord, so there is boasting, but only in the Lord. According to you guys Zacchaeus was boasting and the Lord should have rebuked him for it instead of praising him.

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You say:

• God's grace is not merited. (No conditions)
  
• There are required preconditions to meet on our part (Faith)

Now read:

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Notice - the gift of salvation by Grace through Faith. Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is not the gift from God. The Scripture says, of God, the gift is God.

Think about this: Soli Deo Gloria

Ho0wefver, Predestination is fatalism in the sense your destiny and everything you do is already decided for you. Also, when you take about a cold, impersonal force controlling everything you should take a closer look at Calvin's model of God as he is in his own nature. Calvin is quire specific that the Deity is without any sort of emotion, period, even negative emotion such as anger. Also, Calvin is quite specific that god is wholly immutable and therefore wholly unaffected by the world. God, to Calvin, is largely an extension of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover. I'd sure say that Calvin's God is ice cold and indifferent.

GillDouglas said:

I think this is only where we disagree, Ordo Salutis. The order of salvation. Those who WILL believe, not because they believed. We believe that God acts first with Predestination, Election, Calling, Regeneration and then men come in with Faith, Repentance and together by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Justification, Adoption, Sanctification, Perseverance and Glorification.

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The question is why do they disagree? Monergism v. Synergism.

True Science said:

If you go back and reread all my posts about Romans 1 you will see it completely undermines what you have said here. God clearly says he often wanted to gather Israel into his bosom but he could not because they were not willing. And for Calvinists God is only just nominally not actually. It is not the actual justice as revealed in Romans 1 and that God has put within our conscience that we know by nature.

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“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." Matthew 23:37

Notice that the scripture does not add "but he could not because they were not willing (as you do here).

Obviously He was dealing with these people according to their choices.

But you are going beyond what the scripture teaches.

It does not say that He could not do it another way if He wanted to. Nor does it say anything about His ability or willingness to "coerce" them if He chose to do so.

In fact one needs only look at His "coercion" of Israel in the great tribulation to see that He plans to do exactly that.

Space would fail us if we exhausted the entire Bible for examples. But look at Romans 11:11 to see a way that He coerces them by making them jealous.

"I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous."

Now if I'm getting this all wrong and you are only trying to refute regeneration before faith - you need to understand that God doesn't force anyone to believe. If He does indeed regenerate in order that men will have faith - it is by their own free will that these people come to Him for salvation with their new nature.

I agree that Scripture, especially the OT, presents a rather drastic picture of God as cruel and unloving and then someone who wouldn't hesitate to turn his back on us. However, the NT presents God as loving, a God who loves the whole world, not just the elect, a God is seeking to save everyone, not just the elect. Calvin, then , falsely contends that God with hoods his love from the reprobate, which means the vast majority of the human race. I sure don't see that in Scripture. Maybe you do; but maybe, just maybe, you are reading Scripture through the lens of Calvin and then not getting the whole story.

Cush said:

So if God decrees a man to salvation, and that man rejects - will that man be saved? If so, how?

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You are asking a loaded question based on faulty presuppositions. God is Sovereign despite God creating free willed beings who have the capacity to reject Him. How so?

Well, for one, God says in His Word that there are saints who are a part of His Kingdom. God has rule over these saints and they are a part of His Sovereign Kingdom. God also has rule over many, many angels, as well. They are also a part of His Sovereign Kingdom. So God has a Kingdom and He is Sovereignly in control of that Kingdom of those who have chosen of their own free will to side with God. God rules over those He created (who agree of their own free will) to be placed under His authority. In no way does this Kingdom cease to exist or take away the rulership or Sovereignty of God if there are those who choose to reject the Lord in this life.

While God's will and desire (Which is not a decree) is for all men to be saved, God does not force salvation upon men because He wants man to choose Him freely of their own choice. Why? Well, because God wants man to exhibit true love towards Him as God naturally does. For love cannot exist unless both parties agree to love each other. This is where many versions of Calvinism fails. For it elimates love. For in certain Calvinistic beliefs, love is something that has to be forced. But we know that real life teaches us that love is something where two people agree of their own free will to love each other.

Also, those who reject God's plan of salvation does not undo the Sovereignty of God because God was the One who gave man the choice to choose Him or to reject Him of their own free will choice (with each of those choices having it's own consequences that God has laid out under His rule). For God will eliminate or erase all evil in the universe. Why? Because God is good and He desires His Kingdom and Universe to be good as it was intended from the very beginning.


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Jason0047 said:

You are asking a loaded question based on faulty presuppositions. God is Sovereign despite God creating free willed beings who have the capacity to reject Him. How so?

Well, for one, God says in His Word that there are saints who are a part of His Kingdom. God has rule over these saints and they are a part of His Sovereign Kingdom. God also has rule over many, many angels, as well. They are also a part of His Sovereign Kingdom. So God has a Kingdom and He is Sovereignly in control of that Kingdom of those who have chosen of their own free will to side with God. God rules over those He created (who agree of their own free will) to be placed under His authority. In no way does this Kingdom cease to exist or take away the rulership or Sovereignty of God if there are those who choose to reject the Lord in this life.

While God's will and desire (Which is not a decree) is for all men to be saved, God does not force salvation upon men because He wants man to choose Him freely of their own choice. Why? Well, because God wants man to exhibit true love towards Him as God naturally does. For love cannot exist unless both parties agree to love each other. This is where many versions of Calvinism fails. For it elimates love. For in certain Calvinistic beliefs, love is something that has to be forced. But we know that real life teaches us that love is something where two people agree of their own free will to love each other.

Also, those who reject God's plan of salvation does not undo the Sovereignty of God because God was the One who gave man the choice to choose Him or to reject Him of their own free will choice (with each of those choices having it's own consequences that God has laid out under His rule). For God will eliminate or erase all evil in the universe. Why? Because God is good and He desires His Kingdom and Universe to be good as it was intended from the very beginning.
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Apparently some are saved by their contradictions, that is, we must reject their profession per verbatim.

• God's grace is not merited. (No conditions)
  
• There are required conditions to meet on our part (Faith)

God's grace being unmerited doesn't mean there are no conditions to access that grace.
Faith is the condition? Yes, but not faith alone (James 2). It is a living faith that is faithfulness in obedience to the truth (Romans 6).

"“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

The Greek says, "By grace you are having been saved." We could take this as "by grace you exist [in the state of] having been saved." It is not our doing that God sent his only Son to die for us as a gift to make salvation available to sinners who did not do this. It is freely by God's grace that can be saved and that we exist in the state of having been saved. Because without that free gift of Christ atonement to the world which we must receive to have our sins washed away, even if we obeyed God, we would not be able to wash away our own sins. This is the graciousness of God. A favor God did for us that we do not deserve and which he was not obligated to do for us. But he did, and because of that we are saved, not because we saved ourselves. It doesn't mean that works are not required to access God's grace.

1Ti_2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I am well aware, True Science, that the OT presents a drastic picture of God as unloving, unjust, unmerciful, sadistic, war-mongering, etc. I feel that occurred because the OT is not a whole or complete revelation of God, a point held by the Reformers. Remember, the OT, divinely inspired as it may have been is still the work of a semi-barbaric culture.
The situation with the passages you cite from Ephesians is a much different situation. Paul is talking about the fact that historically Judaism excluded the uncircumcised, the gentiles, from salvation. This was also a problem Paul faced with the "pillars" in Jerusalem, who were Judaizers in that they assumed you had to be Jewish, circumcised, and practice all the Jewish customs to be a saved Christian. Paul is fighting against that. Paul is trying to say that you as gentiles should no longer feel exempt from salvation, which was the distinct impression the Judaizers created.

Justification is by Faith Alone. In James, it is faith being justified by works, and not the sinner.

True Science said:

• God's grace is not merited. (No conditions)
  
• There are required conditions to meet on our part (Faith)

God's grace being unmerited doesn't mean there are no conditions to access that grace.
Faith is the condition? Yes, but not faith alone (James 2). It is a living faith that is faithfulness in obedience to the truth (Romans 6).

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FWIW, that's wrong on several accounts. We do not choose God (Faith). We are not capable as sinners of comprehending, let alone accepting, saving Faith. Second, it does appear, from Scripture, that it is indeed Faith and nothing of ourselves that merits God's favor.

If we would put aside the well-worn misrepresentations of James and some of these other passages, I think we could find our way, together, to the answer, although I'm not holding my breath about that happening.

Albion said:

Second, it does appear, from Scripture, that it is indeed Faith and nothing of ourselves that merits God's favor.

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I'll agree with this, if you will agree that the object of our faith is God, and not ourselves?