Sir, it says you are a Presbyterian but this does not sound like the traditional Calvinist position.
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It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots! Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.
That's what I thought.It's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots!
Very well. It would appear, then, that there is no "scripting" of each and every, little, individual, even trivial, act or thought, but that there is a general, overall, orientation that must operate if one is indeed among the Elect. It would follow, I suppose, that those who are not among the Elect are outside that guidance system for the most part.Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.
FreeGrace2, may I ask your opinion on two things? In regards to the condition of men since the fall and original sin: What was the full affect of the fall, in regards to the relationship between men and God? Are men born into this condition of enmity with God? Do you agree that the nature of me from birth is a sinful state? Can a dead tree bare fruit? Can a bird with a broken wing fly?The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.
Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards.
We're just about on the same page, Albion. I would only disagree with this final point; no man, even the unbelieving atheist, is outside of His 'guidance system'. All things work towards His plan.It would follow, I suppose, that those who are not among the Elect are outside that guidance system for the most part.
For what it's worth - I'm of the group who would answer yes, right up front, to the examples you gave. Meaning by that that "yes" God did predestine what color of shirt you would choose to put on.I may have. However, I don't think that conclusively answers the question. I agree that all things are within God's eternal purpose, etc. but I'm not finding a hard and fast answer there that tells me that the doctrine of Predestination means, for example, that I will choose brand A over brand B when in the grocery store and will put on the red shirt instead of the blue one or that I choose not to get on flight 798 when boarding in the terminal because God made me do whatever it was.
Is that the case OR is it, as I've always thought, that being among the Elect (or not) is what Predestination is about, and all the little decisions we make along the way are not predetermined except for God having some overall plan, direction, the "whole scope," etc. (which just about any Christian acknowledges)?
Anyway, I appreciate that you replied to me. It looked like the thread was sweeping past my post again.
Me too.According to Calvin, Gilldouglas, the doctrine of predestination applies to absolutely that happens, no matter how great or small it is.
Sir, I do currently attend an Orthodox Presbyterian Church. In my five years since knowing God, I've only attended PCA and OPC. The Presbyterian church (minus PCUSA) subscribes to many of the doctrines concerning the salvation of men and God's complete and utter sovereignty. I do consider myself a full five point Calvinist.Sir, it says you are a Presbyterian but this does not sound like the traditional Calvinist position.
Yes, I believe I am in synch with that. I meant only that he's not performing at the level of the Elect.We're just about on the same page, Albion. I would only disagree with this final point; no man, even the unbelieving atheist, is outside of His 'guidance system'. All things work towards His plan.
Definitively, my Anglican brother, God can exercise over the Elect a particular providence and work in them through His Holy Spirit so that they will first come to Christ and then persevere in His service, without destroying or impairing the free agency. None have this will and desire except those whom God has made such; and He gives this will and desire to none but His own.Yes, I believe I am in synch with that. I meant only that he's not performing at the level of the Elect.
Gill, thanks for taking the time to go through all of this.
I think what you miss here is that even after we are saved, we still choose how we conduct our relationshipIt's not that we do not have a choice, we do have choices because God has ordained human liberty. We are not robots! Our decisions, however, aren't left to the whirling loom of chance but rather in the hands of an infinitely good and wise God. We are not in the grip of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving Heavenly Father. While the act of the decision remains that of the individual, it is nevertheless due more or less to the predisposing agency and efficacy of Divine power exerted in lawful ways. All things that we do, although it might seem small and inconsequential, are done with respect to the will of God.
There really isn't much about the PC(USA) that remains Calvinist anymore, though, and it's Calvinism that we were addressing here.I can't see, Gilldouglas, how you view is really any different from predestination, from the notion that God predetermined all your decisions. If we have genuine freedom, then we have to decide for ourselves. God cannot decide our decisions for us. Also, you can minus out the PCUSA if you want, but you should point it is by far the largest Presbyterian denomination. I can see that if you are a TULIP, you might be unhappy in the PCUSA. However, it is also the case that the PCUSA is the church where you can agree to disagree. I find people have all sorts of differing views in the PCUSA. That's what I like about it.
Who is it that initiates, orchestrates and eternally maintains that relationship?I think what you miss here is that even after we are saved, we still choose how we conduct our relationship
with Him.
Many different things can effect this depending on each person. We still do all the choosing. The Holy Spirit works in the lives of those who are listening. He does not force anyone to do anything. Some become very good at tuning out that voice. Others think that they get to heaven by works, some think by not sinning, some by attending church, ect
If a person chooses more of a personal relationship with God often prayer is very important and worship and God's Word.
We control most facets of the relationship with God. The more we seek, the more we find as the verses say.
Being the largest Presbyterian denomination doesn't make it THE whole (or the right one), in fact we are so fundamentally different that I don't consider us to be in the same denomination. Being the largest might be an indicator that being a mainstream liberal church appeals to the masses, but that is ok because God can use that. Regardless of the denomination, wherever God has placed you, you are there for HIS purpose not your own.Also, you can minus out the PCUSA if you want, but you should point it is by far the largest Presbyterian denomination. I can see that if you are a TULIP, you might be unhappy in the PCUSA. However, it is also the case that the PCUSA is the church where you can agree to disagree. I find people have all sorts of differing views in the PCUSA. That's what I like about it.
I believe you may have misunderstood @Marvin Knox. No one (on our side of this discussion) would be so bold to say that we are saved because of our theology, and we certainly wouldn't condemn anyone who didn't have the same understanding. Our hope is only to get others to understand why we view salvation the way we do.Look, Marvin, one of the rules in theological discussion is that we do not knock the spirituality of those with whom we disagree. That means, most especially, we do not came back at someone and say you area lost souls or doomed because you do not agree with my belief system. Check the rules for this forum. That is precisely what you are doing and it is totally out of line here. Therefore, if you want me to take you seriously and feel you have something to contribute, you are going to have to abide by the rules here.
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