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I have no real problem with what you say above.For the purposes of debate a person defending Calvinist dogmas would be considered a Calvinist give the title of this thread.
That is not slander. Labels mean something.
Not when you are calling people who have said more than once they ARE NOT a Calvinist and you keep calling them a Calvinist.For the purposes of debate a person defending Calvinist dogmas would be considered a Calvinist give the title of this thread.
That is not slander. Labels mean something.
It is based on what will glorify Him most in the long run as He displays His mercy and grace along with His justice and wrath in the ages to come according to the council of His perfect will.Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not .
What does God base his election on?
You say you are not a Calvinists, so I guess you are unfamiliar with what they teach:
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not .
The Bible plainly says all men are sinners. Not "were" sinners, as you suppose.
We confess in order to be cleansed.
And as Jesus had to teach ol' Peter in John 13, even though he was "clean", meaning saved, he still needed his feet cleaned to have fellowship with Jesus. Otherwise, Peter could have "no part" with Jesus. That's about fellowship obviously.
I just told you. From the Bible. 1 Jn 1:9.
What is it about the words "immediately" and some point in the future" that aren't clear enough that they aren't equated at all? That's the continuing hang up that you present.
In Jesus' day, foot washing wasn't symbolic. It was functional. Animals shared the roads and paths with humans. So people got FECES all over their feet when they walked the roads and paths.
If you lived at that time, would you want anyone to track any of that stuff into your home? Hm? Of course not. You'd have a servant clean the feet of all visitors.
So, even though one would have had a bath before visiting, their feet would still need to be cleaned before entering the home for the purpose of fellowship. That was Jesus' point to Peter and the rest.
I've explained this thoroughly. There is nothing more that I can do. But go ahead and knock yourself out with the most outlandish scenarios you can think of.
But since you do bring up extreme scenarios, it only shows that the real person that has been offended is you. And you don't want anyone to get away with anything. You want them in hell, right?
Well, God has a different plan for mankind. The plan is based on GRACE, something that the conditional security ilk have no idea about
I've already shown the verses that teach that Christ died for all sin once for all.
So even when a child of God sins after being saved, that sin was already covered by Christ's sacrifice.
It seems you're understanding of what the OT sacrifices were for is lacking.
No - you are wrong.Actually, that is not true. God's Word does say that we used to be sinners in the past. ...
No. I enlarged the words (and just recently colored them in red) to help everyone here to see. So there is no room for misunderstanding. The passages are clear in what they say. Anyone who reads these passages plainly (with no preconceived ideas), can easily understand it's message. Words like "IN TIMES PAST" and "FORMERLY" and "ONCE WALKED" when talking about lusts or sins is speaking of the past. You simply do not want to see it because it does not agree with your sin and still be saved type belief, my friend.No - you are wrong.
You aren't even close to being right in so far as the scriptures testify about us at this present time.
It does not say that we "used to be" sinners in the past.
The scriptures speak in the present tense concerning what we do and what we now are.
"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:15-27
If you feel that you simply must try to undermine the eternal security of believers - please drop this bankrupt idea that believers are no longer sinners and just move on to other avenues of argumentation.
The Godly thing to do is to admit that you are wrong in some of the things you have said and try another approach.
So long as you continue to fight for an idea that is clearly not scriptural, you show yourself to be prideful and unwilling to simply say that you were wrong in some of the things you have said.
The right thing to do would be to just own up to your mistakes and move on.
That shouldn't be very difficult for a true child of God IMO (which, frankly, makes me wonder about you and your relationship with the Holy Spirit.)
Repent and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ for your eternal salvation - and you will receive the Holy Spirit who will convict you of these sins that you are committing here.
If one checks the context (v.23), one realizes that the subject is the Tribulation. This verse has NO application in general terms.Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Just like the previous verse, the context here is STILL about the Tribulation (v.20).Luke 21:19
Stand firm, and you will win life.
The Greek word for "share" means to 'partner'. Which connotes fellowship. This is NOT about loss of salvation.Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
The agricultural metaphor teaches about either being useful to God (as Israel thought they were) or being unuseful and discarded. Again, NOT about loss of salvation.Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Another agrucultural metaphor about being useful or not. And the phrase "remain in Me" refers again to fellowship, NOT relationship.
Those who read these passages realize that Paul is noting their former lifestyles as unbelievers and admonishing believers to NOT continue to live like that.No. I enlarged the words (and just recently colored them in red) to help everyone here to see. So there is no room for misunderstanding. The passages are clear in what they say. Anyone who reads these passages plainly (with no preconceived ideas), can easily understand it's message. Words like "IN TIMES PAST" and "FORMERLY" and "ONCE WALKED" when talking about lusts or sins is speaking of the past. You simply do not want to see it because it does not agree with your sin and still be saved type belief, my friend.
Anyways, may God's love and peace shine upon you.
And please be well.
...
You've yet failed to explain how God's gifts, which are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) and include eternal life (Rom 6:23) can be lost.Actually, that is not true. God's Word does say that we used to be sinners in the past. For the Scriptures say,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:2-3).
"Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Ephesians 4:19-24).
" And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister." (Colossians 1:21-23). (New American Standard).
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience, in which ye also once walked, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Do not lie one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him." (Colossians 3:5-10). (21st Century King James).
"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:13-16).
What does 1 John 1:9 say we are ceansed of? Unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17 says all unrighteousness is sin. So we are cleansed of sin. This makes sense because 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. So one is saved if they confess. For forgiveness and salvation are tied together.
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace." (Ephesians 1:7).
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, that is, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:14) (Geneva Bible)
No. The outward cleaning was symbolic of their inward condition of being clean. For Jesus said there is one among them who is not clean (i.e. Judas).
I still have no idea what confession serves for you. You said one is cleansed. But of what thing is a person being cleansed of?
Your missing the point. It does not matter if a believer sins immediately after they confessed or if they sin at some point in the far future. If they say they are going to be a slave to sin in some way the rest of their life, they are making excuses that they will sin. God cannot condone such thinking because He would have to be a party to such wrong thinking on sin; And that is just not possible.
Jesus said his words are spirit and they are life. There was never a time that He did not speak without it having a spiritual meaning attached to it.
I have not provided outlandish scenarios. I have provided real world examples or parables just as Jesus had done.
This is just false slander. No. I do not wish any evil upon anyone. I also do not believe hell is a place of eternal torment. I believe it is more like a really bad prison and in time after the Judgment, all the wicked in hell will be erased from existence in the Lake of Fire. Evil will come to an end.
The Conditional Salvationist understands Biblical grace just fine. They just do not prescribe to OSAS's version of grace that condones sin in some way.
And I provided the context for you so as to show you that it is not what you think it says.
The difference between the OT sacrifices and Christ's perfect sacrifice is that the OT sacrifice never took away past sin for good. They had to keep revisiting the same past sins each year. But with Jesus's perfect sacrifice, all past sin is forever forgiven. But just like in the Old Covenant, if one sins again, they both need to confess their sin so as to maintain their right standing with God.
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29)....
I have no real problem with what you say above.
I want it known that I differ on the 5 points in various way in so far as the way I would explain them.
But, in so far as I have taken it upon myself to defend what Calvinists and I have in common - I can live without anyone having qualify my nuanced beliefs every time they debate Calvinist doctrine with me.
He brings about what He has predestined and decreed to take place in His creation through the laws of nature that He has subjected His creation to. That includes the "free will" actions of his creatures influenced mightily by our natures.
Ok, I'll bite.
How do you explain the 20 verses that say we are saved through God's grace through FAITH?
How does the happy Calvinist get passed the fact that EACH human being must come to Him in faith?
Note: The words specifically say "come to Him" because we must come to Him IN FAITH, WITH FAITH.
You've yet failed to explain how God's gifts, which are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) and include eternal life (Rom 6:23) can be lost.
I said this:
" Salvation itself is the gift. As well, eternal life itself is a gift of God. Rom 6:23, 2 Cor 9:15
Please cite any verse that actually says that man can give away or give back his gift of eternal life/salvation."
If one checks the context (v.23), one realizes that the subject is the Tribulation. This verse has NO application in general terms.
Just like the previous verse, the context here is STILL about the Tribulation (v.20).
The Greek word for "share" means to 'partner'. Which connotes fellowship. This is NOT about loss of salvation.
The agricultural metaphor teaches about either being useful to God (as Israel thought they were) or being unuseful and discarded. Again, NOT about loss of salvation.
Another agrucultural metaphor about being useful or not. And the phrase "remain in Me" refers again to fellowship, NOT relationship.
Once again, another list that does NOT teach that man is able to give back or give away his salvation.
How would one give away his eternal life, his justification, his forgiveness, his status as a son of God? Impossible. And there are no examples of such a thing in Scripture.
Your list failed.
Why would God want to stop us if he knows we'll reject? You're saying he doesn't know and hopes for it.God's gift is the grace that leads to eternal life. He will not withdraw this gift, but neither will he stop us from rejecting it or accepting it then throwing it away.
That's why we must be careful not to shipwreck our faith through sin.
Where do we see god when we chose?
Actually, not. There is only 1 verse about justification being "not by faith alone". However, what is clear is that James' focus in ch 2 is on how others view us. And because of 2:18 which shows that the ONLY WAY others can see our faith is by our deeds, the justification in 2:24 isn't from God's perspective, but the perspective of others.We are saved by faith, but not faith alone, as scripture points out in dozens of passages.
Yes, 2 Cor 5:10 says so. But where in that passage do we read that salvation is based on any of these things?We will be judged for our actions, including prayer, confession, evil deeds and good works.
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