Logical Problems with Calvinism

Marvin Knox said:

That is not true.

Calvinists believe that it matters very much what we do.

That is not true.

Calvinists believe that God sends men to Hell precisely because of their actions on earth.

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You say you are not a Calvinists, so I guess you are unfamiliar with what they teach:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not .

So....the problem is simply that you don't understand the meaning of what you're quoting to us??

Albion said:

So....the problem is simply that you don't understand the meaning of what you're quoting to us??

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I understand it perfectly well. As did John Calvin:

We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth....

Thursday said:

I understand it perfectly well.

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Apparently not. Here's what you wrote before:

Calvinists believe that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you have faith and are one of the "elect".

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Calvinists believe that God sends some men to Hell and saves others with no consideration for their actions on earth

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Neither of those is in any way supported by the quotation you gave us:

"God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not".

Albion said:

Apparently not. Here's what you wrote before:


↑


Neither of those is in any way supported by the quotation you gave us:

"God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not".

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Of course it does. You just don't like the consequences of what Calvin taught. I don't either. Luckily, it is not true.

Thursday said:

You say you are not a Calvinists, so I guess you are unfamiliar with what they teach:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not .

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I very much believe the above statements. Election is very much up to God's inscrutable decision before the foundation of the world concerning the eventual salvation of some and the passing by of others.

No sinner has "merit" before God. Unless you count meriting punishment in Hell merit.

God doesn't simply "look into the future". There is no future unless God Himself makes the future happen. That has always been and always will be so.

God does, however, know all possible futures as well as exactly what future He will bring to past. He always has known those things -from before the foundation of the world.

Your view of God's omniscience and His providential control over everything that happens in His creation is rather shallow - if I can say so without too much offense being taken. Don't take offense. The view of many Calvinists is also rather shallow IMO.

By the way I (and Calvinists in general) believe that salvation is very much conditional on what we do in this life.

God only saves those who have faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on their behalf. All Reformed theologians – full 5 point Calvinists and non-Calvinist alike - believe in justification by faith alone.

No one in the Calvinist camp teaches that so called election in and of itself saves anyone.

What I (and full Calvinists) do believe is unconditional - is God’s decision before the foundation of the world to bring to past the circumstances where certain men will not only exist but where they will exercise saving faith and be saved at some point in their life.

He has not revealed to us why He chose to bring some situations to past in history and allow others to remain part of His eternal omniscient knowledge of all things possible.

The scripture is clear that God doesn’t simply “allow” things to take place. He is intimately active in everything that happens in His creation.

Proper considerations concerning God's nature as revealed in scripture and His relationship with His creation demand that there be a belief in the predestination by God of everything that happens in His creation and, by extension, the "election" of each and every person who exercises saving faith in his or her life.

Those things would be true even if God did not act in history in special ways for certain people that He doesn't for some others to bring them to salvation. (That's another subject really and deserves separate consideration of certain scriptures IMO.)

Thursday said:

Of course it does..

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Well, verbal footstomping doesn't accomplish anything. If you think what you wrote is somehow supported by the quotation you chose, you can show how that's so. Where, for example, does it say that it doesn't matter what you do so long as you have faith? Where does it say that God saves or damns without any consideration of what they do?

It's pretty clear to me that you are reading what you think is supposed to be there, or have been told by someone else is there, but which isn't.

Marvin Knox said:

No one in the Calvinist camp teaches that so called election in and of itself saves anyone.

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You are mistaken again.

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

Albion said:

Well, verbal footstomping doesn't accomplish anything. If you think what you wrote is somehow supported by the quotation you chose, you can show how that's so. Where, for example, does it say that it doesn't matter what you do so long as you have faith? Where does it say that God saves or damns without any consideration of what they do?

It's pretty clear to me that you are reading what you think is supposed to be there, or have been told by someone else is there, but which isn't.

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Marvin believes what I posted is an accurate representation of his beliefs. Perhaps you just aren't a five points Calvinist.

Thursday said:

Marvin believes what I posted is an accurate representation of his beliefs.

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If you can't read what Marvin wrote and get it straight, how much less likely is it that you got Calvin right?

What Marvin said is that he believes what you QUOTED, not your own interpretation of it and comments written about it.

Basically, what this boils down to is that you can't substantiate your own theories about Calvinism and it would take too much for the rest of us to explain the actual facts of the matter to you, let alone find any way to get you to listen.

Albion said:

If you can't read what Marvin wrote and get it straight, how much less likely is it that you got Calvin right?

What Marvin said is that he believes what you QUOTED, not your own interpretation of it and comments written about it.

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His comments make it clear that he believes that it means what it says, as do I.

I have no idea what you think unconditional election is.

Marvin Knox said: ↑
"No one in the Calvinist camp teaches that so called election in and of itself saves anyone."

Thursday said:

You are mistaken again.

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

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Irresistible grace has no direct bearing on unconditional election.

Election took place before the foundation of the world.

Any acts of grace (irresistible or otherwise) take place in history.

Marvin Knox said:

Marvin Knox said: ↑
"No one in the Calvinist camp teaches that so called election in and of itself saves anyone."


Irresistible grace has no direct bearing on unconditional election.

Election took place before the foundation of the world.

Any acts of grace (irresistible or otherwise) take place in history.

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You people crack me up!

Thursday said:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not .

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

I very much believe the above statements. Election is very much up to God's inscrutable decision before the foundation of the world concerning the eventual salvation of some and the passing by of others.

Click to expand...

Thursday said:

His comments make it clear that he believes that it means what it says, as do I.

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Albion said:

What Marvin said is that he believes what you QUOTED, not your own interpretation of it and comments written about it.

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It is exactly as Albion said.

I agree with what you quoted about what Calvinists teach.

I do not agree with your comments about what the implications of those teachings are.

Thursday said:

You people crack me up!

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My son used to say when he was a little guy, "Dad that really gives me a crack.

Be that as it may - the false gospel of the Papists is completely bereft of any kind of humor.

Thursday said:

This is funny coming from a Calvinist.

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And he has said before he is not a Calvinist. So are you also
Slandering this brother?

You feel it is so necessary to identify people as a Calvinist or not, but no one here except self admitted Calvinist (the person you are replying to NOT being one) yet you seem to want to assign a title to everyone and no one wants it but the Calvinist.

Let's stop the labels unless one wants and asks for that label.

Only Calvinist's think that term is even used. We never use it unless we are talking w one of you guys.

Thursday said:

You are mistaken again.

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

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Please take your Catholic defense to the proper forum. You're disrupting this thread and this forum with your Catholic nonsense.

Marvin Knox said:

It is exactly as Albion said.

I agree with what you quoted about what Calvinists teach.

I do not agree with your comments about what the implications of those teachings are.

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Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not .

What does God base his election on?

nobdysfool said:

Please take your Catholic defense to the proper forum. You're disrupting this thread and this forum with your Catholic nonsense.

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I'm quoting Calvinist doctrine.

If you can't defend it that is your business. This thread is about the logical flaws in Calvinism, and there are many.

ToBeLoved said:

And he has said before he is not a Calvinist. So are you also
Slandering this brother?

You feel it is so necessary to identify people as a Calvinist or not, but no one here except self admitted Calvinist (the person you are replying to NOT being one) yet you seem to want to assign a title to everyone and no one wants it but the Calvinist.

Let's stop the labels unless one wants and asks for that label.

Only Calvinist's think that term is even used. We never use it unless we are talking w one of you guys.

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For the purposes of debate a person defending Calvinist dogmas would be considered a Calvinist give the title of this thread.

That is not slander. Labels mean something.