Logical Problems with Calvinism

Jason0047 said:

Usually OSAS is tied to Calvinism. OSAS is just another way of saying, "sin and still be saved" because once a person is saved, there is nothing they can do to become unsaved.

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A belief in the eternal security of the believer is not limited to Calvinism.

People can be of vastly different beliefs in many things and still believe the promises of God.

For example: FreeGrac2 and I have a great many differences and yet we both believe strongly in the eternal security of believers.

Jason0047 said:

But in any event, you yourself have implied in your parable that the child was saved even if he did not confess or repent of such a sin. Is that what you were saying? Anyways, saying the child can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved tends to lean towards OSAS. If not, then please explain.
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That is indeed what I am saying. Once a child of God always a child of God - to paraphrase many scriptures that teach that.

Jason0047 said:

As for the parable: You must have missed it but I did make note of how you created one after I seen it in the morning. So I updated my post before you even made this reply (Which means you should have seen the update). But it is understandable that you missed it. ....

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I didn't miss it.

Jason0047 said:

For I do not catch everything that you say because I honestly find it hard to read your posts sometimes. Not because they are written with any grammar errors or anything but because I find them to be a little hostile. In other words, if you want to communicate with me more effectively, it would be better if you leave out the personal smart remarks (that makes it sound like you are hostile towards me) and just stick with discussing the Scriptures. I would appreciate that. Thank you. And may God bless you. ....

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I'll try real hard to not be so hostile.

Please try real hard to not misrepresent my beliefs and the beliefs of other here as you have been doing.

GillDouglas said:

A Calvinist is an individual who would subscribe to all five points - (T)otal Depravity, (U)nconditional Election, (L)imited Attonement, (I)rresistible Grace, and (P)reservation of the Saints. Basically they boil down to; man lacks the capacity save himself (Original Sin assumed), God has chosen that some will be saved (All things predestined), the conditioned man (regenerated) cannot resist Him and He will not lose any of those He chose. If anyone does not subscribe to any one of the five points, they would not consider themselves a Calvinist. In Marvin's case, I believe, he could consider himself a four point Calvinist.

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I would probably subscribe to all of them with quite a few caveats concerning every point.

At any rate - it's hard to escape the label of "Calvinist" if you believe in the total sovereignty of God as I do.

GillDouglas said:

I find it difficult to believe that you do not follow any idea or understanding of Scripture that wasn't already captured in this way by believers in the past.

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Perhaps this appx. 4 minute video from Answers in Genesis might help you to see where I am coming from. For I believe there is a difference between Historical Evidence and Observable Evidence.



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Jason0047 said:

While this may be true for you, what do you think of the verses I brought forth that defends Conditional Immortality?


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They can be taken several ways.

This thread is way too busy to get into it here.

Marvin Knox said:

I would probably subscribe to all of them with quite a few caveats concerning every point.

At any rate - it's hard to escape the label of "Calvinist" if you believe in the total sovereignty of God as I do.

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When anyone asks me about my denomination, or Calvinism that's the focus I give them, the sovereignty of God and His Authority over creation. When I go into further detail the two that they often immediately reject is Limited Atonement (All will not be saved) and Irresistible Grace. It's a difficult doctrine to understand and it offends most people, but it boils down to God's sovereignty.

sdowney717 said:

Agree!
He also does not believe the scriptures.
On our being given a guarantee by God of eternal life is testified,

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

But he contradicts God saying God will unseal His sealing of believers, so that believers will go to hell fire.
And what about this being a purchased possession, what they teach is God sells believers back into sin and death.

All of this is against what Christ teaches, but of course being blinded in their minds by Satan, they will never know this truth unless God grants them to repentance so that they can come to their senses after being captured by Satan to do his will.
These sort deny our being called of God to be glorified and how we can not know Christ unless God and Christ choose to reveal themselves.
A man can receive nothing unless it is given to him from heaven, so then knowing God and Christ are irrevocable gifts.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

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And I am still waiting for your opinion on Matthew 7:21 that then ties into Matthew 7:24-27, my friend.


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Why do they follow Him? Is it not because first the father drew them and gave them to Jesus?

Gotta take another break for a long while.

Besides - IMO - it's all been said here. It's just variations on a theme now.

I've also got an admittedly short fuse and my patience is wearing a bit thin.

Thank God though for His promise to me concerning my eternal security.

Jason0047 said:

Perhaps this appx. 4 minute video from Answers in Genesis might help you to see where I am coming from. For I believe there is a difference between Historical Evidence and Observable Evidence.
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The Bible is enough, I agree, but you're not the first and only person to believe your particular understanding of it's teachings.

Marvin Knox said:

A belief in the eternal security of the believer is not limited to Calvinism.

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Yes, I know. But I believe Calvinism is the origin of OSAS (even though many OSAS proponents will deny it).

People can be of vastly different beliefs in many things and still believe the promises of God.

For example: FreeGrac2 and I have a great many differences and yet we both believe strongly in the eternal security of believers.

That is indeed what I am saying. Once a child of God always a child of God - to paraphrase many scriptures that teach that.

I didn't miss it.

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I believe OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is the same thing as saying Eternal Security. So I am not sure why you said you disagreed with the use the term OSAS earlier, my friend (Unless of course it was just an honest mistake, which is understable).

I'll try real hard to not be so hostile.

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Thank you. I deeply appreciate that.

Please try real hard to not misrepresent my beliefs and the beliefs of other here as you have been doing.

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As I said before, I like to clarify what a person believes. Sometimes people are not as forth coming about their beliefs (Which makes it extremely difficult in figuring in what they believe). But I do not see:


...As being a moral and good thing.

I see them both as making an excuse for sin when the Bible clearly tells that we can overcome sin in this life by the Sanctification process.


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GillDouglas said:

The Bible is enough, I agree, but you're not the first and only person to believe your particular understanding of it's teachings.

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Well, I am not suggesting that I am against commentaries by other believers or anything. That is an entirely different thing. Commentaries is an opinion on what the Scriptures say whereby one can test the Scriptures to see if it is true or not. Historical documents can many times come with an entire back history of how that belief existed in man made history during certain events, etc. I believe people who want to write themselves into history can be influenced in the wrong way. For history is written by the victors. While I have used commentators from the past, I prefer using commentaries from believers who are still alive today. For they speak in a way that I would be more familar with what they are saying.


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Jason0047 said:

Well, I am not suggesting that I am against commentaries by other believers or anything. That is an entirely different thing. Commentaries is an opinion on what the Scriptures say whereby one can test the Scriptures to see if it is true or not. Historical documents can many times come with an entire back history of how that belief existed in man made history during certain events, etc. I believe people who want to write themselves into history can be influenced in the wrong way. For history is written by the victors. While I have used commentators from the past, but I prefer using commentaries from believers who are still alive today. For they speak in a way that I would be more familar with what they are saying.
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God provides us teachers throughout the generations, I wouldn't be so quick to disregard their teachings just because they're old dead men.

GillDouglas said:

God provides us teachers throughout the generations, I wouldn't be so quick to disregard their teachings just because they're old dead men.

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As I said before, I have used them in the past. I am also not totally resistant to what they have to say, either. I just prefer modern day commentators because it is easier for me to figure what they believe on other important issues that I feel that they should know.


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Marvin Knox said:

Gotta take another break for a long while.

Besides - IMO - it's all been said here. It's just variations on a theme now.

I've also got an admittedly short fuse and my patience is wearing a bit thin.

Thank God though for His promise to me concerning my eternal security.

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Dear Marvin:

While I disagree with your stand on Eternal Security very strongly, may God bless you and lead you into all truth while you are taking time away.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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Jason0047 said:

And I am still waiting for your opinion on Matthew 7:21 that then ties into Matthew 7:24-27, my friend.


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First you do not believe what Christ says, but let us regardless lay a base of what Christ has said
You do not believe this, Jason. Since you teach believers are condemned when they sin to hell fire.
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Only those who have the Father's Word abiding in them will believe in those God sends, here this is Christ.
That is the drawing the Father does mentioned in John 6
John 5:38
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

The work of God is that you believe in Christ.
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Yet you teach that God fails in the sending forth of His word, yet God tells us His word that is sent accomplishes it's purpose and that is to save the Lost Sheep of Christ, who are those He foreknows in love.

Matthew 7:21 is all about those Jesus KNOWS, so you see we have a relationship of FATHER and the children of God that can not be broken, yet you deny this. The ones HE NEVER KNEW, depart to hell.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These Christ knows, are those who are the good trees which Christ has changed their nature by regeneration. Good trees bear good fruit, and bad ones bad fruit, yet you deny this saying the good tree can bear bad fruit. Christ though says the opposite.

"18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit"
You are an antichrist devil. Since you say the good tree, a born of God saved person, can bear bad fruit and go to hell by sinning.
A born of God person is a new creature in Christ, their have a new spirit, and that one bears good fruit to God. Fruit is the fruits of the Holy Spirit, Fruit are the gifts of the Spirit that we bear inside of us, He indwells the NEW CREATION. You confuse works with fruits.
If you are bearing bad fruit, then Jason, you are an evil tree. You should review the gifts and the fruits of the Spirit, AGAINST WHICH THEIR IS NO LAW!!

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who areChrist’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Jason, you confuse the old man and the new man and deny God's power to save His people from their sins.
What God saves is the new man, not the old man, yet you claim the old man must be fully sanctified and holy or else the whole man is cast into hell.

We have come to Mount ZION and in that place are the spirits of justified men made perfect. That is they are the New Creation in Christ. Hebrews 12.

sdowney717 said:

First you do not believe what Christ says, but let us regardless lay a base of what Christ has said
You do not believe this, Jason. Since you teach believers are condemned when they sin to hell fire.
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Only those who have the Father's Word abiding in them will believe in those God sends, here this is Christ.
That is the drawing the Father does mentioned in John 6
John 5:38
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

The work of God is that you believe in Christ.
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Yet you teach that God fails in the sending forth of His word, yet God tells us His word that is sent accomplishes it's purpose and that is to save the Lost Sheep of Christ, who are those He foreknows in love.

Matthew 7:21 is all about those Jesus KNOWS, so you see we have a relationship of FATHER and the children of God that can not be broken, yet you deny this. The ones HE NEVER KNEW, depart to hell.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These Christ knows, are those who are the good trees which Christ has changed their nature by regeneration. Good trees bear good fruit, and bad ones bad fruit, yet you deny this saying the good tree can bear bad fruit. Christ though says the opposite.

"18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit"
You are an antichrist devil. Since you say the good tree, a born of God saved person, can bear bad fruit and go to hell by sinning.
A born of God person is a new creature in Christ, their have a new spirit, and that one bears good fruit to God. Fruit is the fruits of the Holy Spirit, Fruit are the gifts of the Spirit that we bear inside of us, He indwells the NEW CREATION. You confuse works with fruits.
If you are bearing bad fruit, then Jason, you are an evil tree. You should review the gifts and the fruits of the Spirit, AGAINST WHICH THEIR IS NO LAW!!

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who areChrist’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

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It's like you are saying the exact same thing I would say to refute what you would believe. You are not making any sense. A believer bringing forth the fruits of the Spirit means they are not under the Condemnation of the Law. Why? Because fruits are deeds. They are doing that which is righteous and good. Matthew 7 says he that does not do what Jesus says is like a house upon the sand that will falls when a storm comes. Matthew 7 also says not everyone who says unto Jesus, " Lord, Lord, " will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is he that does the will of the Father. So mere belief is not going to cut it, my friend. For James says you do well to believe there is one God. The devils also believe and tremble.


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Anyways, here are 118 Contradictions made by Calvinists.

http://blog.savetheperishing.com/114-contradictions-from-calvinists/

(Please take note that the author of this web page has updated the number of contradictions to 118 and not 114 as the link says).


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Jason0047 said:

Well, I asked several questions in my post. To question or statement are you replying to?

Do you believe sin is transgression of the Law?
Is not breaking the Commandments the same as sinning?

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Both are.

I do not believe God departs a person immediately if they sin. No. I believe God allows time for a believer to repent or confess of their sin. 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know and break his Commandments. Meaning, this is the type of believer who is abiding in unrepentant or unconfessed sin and thinking they are saved. This is confirmed by 1 John 3:15 that says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Meaning, it is talking about the murderer who is still being a murderer. Only sin that is confessed and forsaken can be forgiven. 1 John 1:9 mentions how we are to confess so as to be forgiven.

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Do you have any idea what Jesus' point was to Peter when He was washing their feet and Peter refused. So Jesus said "Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” John 13:8.

Then Peter said: "Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” v.9

So Jesus replied: "Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." v.10

Jesus' point was that saved people have already been bathed (or cleansed). But they still need their feet cleaned. And He affirmed that Peter was "clean".

Do you not understand any of this? Jesus was speaking of fellowship when He spoke of "having no part with Me". Not about salvation.

Jason0047 said:

So are you saying the testimony of Paul refutes the idea that we cannot use parables?
Where in the Bible does it say that?

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Nope. I am not saying that. I am saying that I have given you a real world example rather than a parable. Which you keep rejecting.

Paul did not preach a different gospel than Jesus. Paul essentially said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

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The condition of a lot of believers, unfortunately.

Actually, I believe speaking in parables does matter because our Lord used them and the Lord approved of a Gentile woman to use one so as to expound on what Jesus said. For spiritual truth can be understood by the use of real world examples. Real world examples or parables shows whether or not somebody is interpreting the Bible correctly. For as I said before, it is easier to twist the Bible than it is to twist something that everyone know is true in the real world.....

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All I can say is…get real. Accept the real world example of Paul himself.

Do you reject what Paul wrote about struggling between our 2 natures?

Jason0047 said:

This is one of the most popular verses that OSAS proponents love to use. SO I have answered this passage many, many times over the years.

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What does this have to do with the here and now.

So what is the context of those sheep who cannot be plucked out his hand? Well, the context of the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out his hand are the type of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. The Scriptures here are not talking about sheep that are being dragged by their necks by leashes here. For if you were to look at verse 27 (that you did not quote) it says,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me:" (John 10:27).​

That is the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out of His hand.....

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So this "explanation" somehow trumps the fact that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God?

Or that God breaks His promise to His own possession that He sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption?

Gee. Who knew?