Logical Problems with Calvinism

Marvin Knox · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Anyways, Galatians 5:24 does not say, they that are Christ's have crucified SOME of the affections and lusts. The word "some" is not in there. It simply says "affections and lusts" meaning all "affections and lusts" will be crucified. .

Ok - so you believe that all earthly affections and lusts must be overcome in order to be saved. Is that correct?

I said, "You apparently believe that your flesh will be made perfect while on this earth. I do not."

Jason0047 said:
And I am not surprised you believe that way. It is a very popular belief that most people hold to.....

So then you believe that those who's flesh has been perfected will not die? If their flesh has been perfected why would they still be under the curse of death?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
Ok - so you believe that all earthly affections and lusts must be overcome in order to be saved. Is that correct?

I said, "You apparently believe that your flesh will be made perfect while on this earth. I do not."

So then you believe that those who's flesh has been perfected and will not die? If their flesh has been perfected why would they still be under the curse of death?

See my previous post to you.

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Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

GillDouglas said:
No you didn't, but we can move on now, though I did ask your opinion not your opinion of what God thinks. Thanks for sharing anyway. You were heading in the right direction here, until you added your own twisted false belief (bold) in there. No true Christian plans to sin, or wants to so you can stop accusing believers of doing so. Apparently you know the date and time you'll stop sinning for good. Well I know the day I die I'll be free, but until then I'll rely on Christ to get through my struggles. Putting words in peoples mouths, which has not been uncommon for you. I don't approve of ANY sin, but I'm not so ignorant or boastful (like you) to think I'm not prone to it.

Again, if what you say is true, then you would have provided me with a real world example to back up your belief by now.

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nobdysfool · Jan 12, 2016

Provide Post #'s of where you feel I have treated people unfairly.

Ummm....that would be nearly all of them, except for those where you toot your own horn.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

nobdysfool said:
Ummm....that would be nearly all of them, except for those where you toot your own horn.

Well, your failure to produce the post #'s and specific words that you think I said are wrong should let others know that you are accusations do not have any kind of weight to them. Prove your case.

Also, please re-read Colossians 4:6 and pray over it, my friend.

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Marvin Knox · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
The Scriptures say he that endures to the end shall be saved. The Scriptures also say without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. But do I believe that all believers thru out time had to live perfectly sinless at some point in order to be saved? No. Every believer's case is different. I believe both Samson and Solomon were saved. The thief on the cross was saved. But that does not negate the truth that God calls us unto holiness and we are not to have the right mind set about agreeing with what it means to be holy. For one belief is set out to rid themselves of sin and the other is a belief that makes an allowance for sin (Which means that they are teaching to others that God can condone a believer's sin - Which is wrong). ....

Simply making an allowance for a few select people in history to have been saved without their achieving a state of perfect sinlessness does not negate the false gospel that you are preaching to the rest of us.

I rebuke you again for preaching a gospel of works related perfection for eventual salvation.

Repent!

Jason0047 said:
For one belief is set out to rid themselves of sin and the other is a belief that makes an allowance for sin (Which means that they are teaching to others that God can condone a believer's sin - Which is wrong). ....

I rebuke you again for misrepresenting my teaching and the teaching of most of us who are participating on this thread.

Repent!

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
Simply making an allowance for a few select people in history to have been saved without their achieving a state of perfect sinlessness does not negate the false gospel that you are preaching to the rest of us.

I rebuke you again for preaching a gospel of works related perfection for eventual salvation.

Repent!

I rebuke you again for misrepresenting my teaching and the teaching of most of us who are participating on this thread.

Repent!

Your rebuke has no effect upon me. It means nothing to me unless you can illustrate your belief by way of a real world example.

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Marvin Knox · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
See my previous post to you.....

I asked you two simple questions. "So then you believe that those who's flesh has been perfected will not die? If their flesh has been perfected why would they still be under the curse of death?"
You have not answered me.

GillDouglas · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
And I reject your rebuke on the grounds that your belief cannot be found in the Bible; nor can it be made into a real world example.

I agree with his rebuke, can you still reject it even now? You are not preaching the same Gospel we are. Your news is far from Good News.

The Scriptures say he that endures to the end shall be saved. The Scriptures also say without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. But do I believe that all believers thru out time had to live perfectly sinless at some point in order to be saved? No. Every believer's case is different. I believe both Samson and Solomon were saved. The thief on the cross was saved. But that does not negate the truth that God calls us unto holiness and we are not to have the right mind set about agreeing with what it means to be holy. For one belief is set out to rid themselves of sin and the other is a belief that makes an allowance for sin (Which means that they are teaching to others that God can condone a believer's sin - Which is wrong).

No ONE goes to the Father except through Christ (John 14:6), why do you think that is? No man is worthy, not one deserves a single gift from God (Romans 3:10) (1 Samuel 2:2) (Ecc 7:20). Yet you continue to preach that man can earn his way into Heaven by becoming sinless. To claim a man can become Holy in this life, like Christ, is hypocritical and heretical.

nobdysfool · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I never said to anyone here personally that they are living in a constant state of sin with the thinking they are saved. I said there are those who believe that way and I have pointed out that their message is not all that different than your message when it is preached. What is that message? That Christ is your righteousness and salvation is not in anything you do. Meaning, if that is all you say to a person, they could get the wrong impression and they could run off and live in sin and think they are saved. It doesn't matter if you believe that those who live in such a way are in the wrong. The point I am getting at is that the message is still the same that leads to the same end result (if not explained properly).

But no. I am not denying that there are folks here who believe that they must strive to avoid sin, but yet they also believe they will never stop sinning in this life. I also do not deny that they confess their sin, either. I have no reason to not believe them if they tell me that is what they believe. But then after they tell me their belief, I can then say it is not a correct belief according to God's Word and by way of a real world example.....

Quit trying to justify your sin. You are wrong, you've been shown to be wrong, many, many times. Yet you persist, and are unrepentant about it. You have gotten personal about it, when challenging someone. For some reason you think that you are uniquely qualified to take the place of the Holy Spirit. Your focus is on what YOU must do, rather than what HE has done. That is blindingly obvious. You clearly do not understand what Christ accomplished, and how it works in peoples' lives. You have no understanding of the position of the believer, or their standing before God.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
I asked you two simple questions. "So then you believe that those who's flesh has been perfected will not die? If their flesh has been perfected why would they still be under the curse of death?"
You have not answered me.

As for your first question: I never said that I believed that they that have crucified the affections and lusts will not face physical death.

As for your second question: Because we are to walk as Christ walked. We are to walk in his footsteps and conform to his image. Christ is our example in how to live holy. Jesus was obedient to the Father until death. For it is glorious to God if we are persecuted and killed for our faith. For it shows that we are faithful even in the face of death whereby we would give glory to Jesus Christ and the life that He lived.

Now, that I have answered your questions, it is time for you to provide a real world example out of what you believe in regards to OSAS.

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Marvin Knox · Jan 12, 2016

GillDouglas said:
I agree with his rebuke, can you still reject it even now? You are not preaching the same Gospel we are. Your news is far from Good News.

No ONE goes to the Father except through Christ (John 14:6), why do you think that is? No man is worthy, not one deserves a single gift from God (Romans 3:10) (1 Samuel 2:2) (Ecc 7:20). Yet you continue to preach that man can earn his way into Heaven by becoming sinless. To claim a man can become Holy in this life, like Christ, is hypocritical and heretical.

The reason I re-engaged with this person is because I saw that he was attempting to hide his true doctrine through deception.

I felt that a few straight forward questions would perhaps flush him out into the open again. I was right.

His motive in all of this is not simply a desire that we all live holy and with a minimum of sin. His motive is and always has been the preaching of another gospel (which is, of course, not really another gospel at all).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

nobdysfool said:
Quit trying to justify your sin. You are wrong, you've been shown to be wrong, many, many times. Yet you persist, and are unrepentant about it. You have gotten personal about it, when challenging someone. For some reason you think that you are uniquely qualified to take the place of the Holy Spirit. Your focus is on what YOU must do, rather than what HE has done. That is blindingly obvious. You clearly do not understand what Christ accomplished, and how it works in peoples' lives. You have no understanding of the position of the believer, or their standing before God.

Okay, there friend. Calm down. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please feel free to show me and I would be happy to apologize if you think I have said something wrong to someone personally.

In any event, may God bless you and please be well.

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Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
The reason I re-engaged with this person is because I saw that he was attempting to hide his true doctrine through deception.

I felt that a few straight forward questions would perhaps flush him out into the open again. I was right.

His motive in all of this is not simply a desire that we all live holy and with a minimum of sin. His motive is and always has been the preaching of another gospel (which is, of course, not really another gospel at all).

There is no deception and you know it. For if what you say is true, you would have provided me with a real world example by now. Care to finally take the challenge?

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GillDouglas · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Jesus was obedient to the Father until death.

He is the only one who ever has, and ever will live obediently. That's why we need him, to cloak us in His righteous majesty so that we may be allowed safe entrance into Heaven. "'Come now, let us reason together', says the LORD: 'though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow'; 'though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.'" (Isaiah 1:18)

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

GillDouglas said:
I agree with his rebuke, can you still reject it even now? You are not preaching the same Gospel we are. Your news is far from Good News.

The good news does not include to cover a person's sin (even if it is done occasionally with them confessing of it). If one has the mind set that they will always be in sin, then that means God must also agree with that type of thinking and that is not possible. God cannot condone sin.

No ONE goes to the Father except through Christ (John 14:6),

I am not in disagreement about this verse. I believe we can only go thru Jesus Christ. But the Jesus Christ described in the Scriptures works in the believer's life, though (And does not make an alllowance for them to continue in their sin - whether it is a little bit of sin over their life or a lot of sin).

why do you think that is? No man is worthy, not one deserves a single gift from God (Romans 3:10) (1 Samuel 2:2) (Ecc 7:20).

So God just picks people randomly that are sinful? Or is there something honorable or holy about such a person?

Yet you continue to preach that man can earn his way into Heaven by becoming sinless.

No, I teach that man must submit to God and that they will allow Christ to do the good work in them whereby they would then become sinless. However, most believers usually have to go thru the Sanctification process, though. This is not in conflict with Sinless Perfectionism.

To claim a man can become Holy in this life, like Christ, is hypocritical and heretical.

No, you have things backwards. One is Holy BECAUSE Christ lives in them. For Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13:5 that they are to prove Christ is in them unless they are reprobrates. How would one prove that Christ is in them? Would it not be by their good deeds?

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Marvin Knox · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Now, that I have answered your questions, it is time for you to provide a real world example out of what you believe in regards to OSAS.....

"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

There's a real world example. Note that he is still a brother even while he is in sin and even while he is being shunned by other believers.

That's a real world example of a believer who is in open sin and is still considered a believer by the Holy Spirit of God.

Your false gospel is a sham and I rebuke you again for preaching it.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

GillDouglas said:
He is the only one who ever has, and ever will live obediently. That's why we need him, to cloak us in His righteous majesty so that we may be allowed safe entrance into Heaven. "'Come now, let us reason together', says the LORD: 'though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow'; 'though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.'" (Isaiah 1:18)

The passage in Isaiah here is talking about initial acceptance of Christ and it is not talking about a continued walk with Him. There is a difference.

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nobdysfool · Jan 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
No. I am not claiming that I live in sin day in and day out.

A glaring example of your thought process. In your view, if a believer commits one sin, they are living in continual, constant sin. That doesn't even make sense! and no one accused you of that. It was simply pointed out that you have admitted that you sin on occasion, and therefore your pipe-dream of sinless perfection is only that, a pipe-dream.

I also believe I am in the Sanctification process with God whereby He will help me to stop sinning. This could be today, tomorrow, or some other time. So I have hope in my God that He will help me to have the victory as other men of God have had in this area.

ALL Christians are in the Sanctification process. Some are farther along than others. But you make no allowance for that.

I can preach this truth to others because the Scriptures also teach that many believers have to go thru a Sanctification process, too.

No believer is exempt from Sanctification. Not a single one! So you're nothing special for being in that process.

Furthermore, I do not need to build an Ark and test to see if it is sea worthy to believe that there was an Ark. I do not need to raise the dead in order to believe and teach to others that such a thing is possible for a believer. It is a miracle. It is no different with God doing a miracle of helping the believer to overcome their sin, too (If they choose to submit to Him).

Irrelevant. The Ark was seaworthy whether you believe it or not. I personally have seen someone raised from the dead. I know it's true, from experience, as well as Scripture.

As for how I am saved: I am saved by His mercy and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. This involves a changed life. Not of my own power but by the power of God.
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There is far more to it than that. Do you even understand how, by being in Christ, we are moved BEYOND the penalty of the Law? Obviously, you don't, or you wouldn't be posting all the false doctrine and drivel you've been posting. You have need of some serious in-depth study of the basics of salvation. that alone would correct much of your errors.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 12, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

There's a real world example. Note that he is still a brother even while he is in sin and even while he is being shunned by other believers.

That's a real world example of a believer who is in open sin and is still considered a believer by the Holy Spirit of God.

Your false gospel is a sham and I rebuke you again for preaching it.

This is not a real world example. This is you reading the Bible and making an interpretation upon it. A real world example is a universal truth in every day life that people would be familar with. For Jesus used real world examples all the time to illustrate spiritual truth. These are called parables. For what was true in the physical world was real for the spiritual. In other words, what you have to do is create a real world example that would not be something said from the Bible but it is an example of a moral lesson or spiritual truth taken from real life. For even the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's real world example and add to it by saying something that is true in the real world, as well.

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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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