Logical Problems with Calvinism

There is no purpose for a person to even believe in God if they want to continue in their sin or they think they cannot stop sinning. God is good and He wants His people to be good, too. We are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. Fruits are deeds. Righteous acts and not bad ones. Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. Bad fruit is sin. Good fruit is righteous deeds. The Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). The BIble says everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).


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I said this:
"The biggest problem is the failure to discern between fellowship, which CAN be broken, and relationship, which cannot be broken. Unless one understands the difference, they cannot discern Scripture."

com7fy8 said:

If we are children of God, we are getting correction >

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

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Yes, this speaks to relationship, or lack thereof.

So, if someone supposes he or she is completely without sin, this could in fact mean the person is not getting correction by our Heavenly Father.

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Very possibly.

I notice how during the vision of Revelation . . . first, it appears John was not ready to see Jesus . . . if Revelation means he fell down because of fear > Revelation 1:17. But Jesus tells John he needs to not fear . . . a possible correction.

Also, later, we see how . . . right during the vision of Revelation, John becomes unspiritual enough to worship an angel . . . certainly a sin > Revelation 19:9-10, Revelation 22:8-9.

So, John was not perfect; but because he was so close to God, he got more closely corrected!

Now . . . about this correction testified in Hebrews 12:4-11 > this correction brings the perfection of God's love > making us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness", as this scripture plainly says. So, the focus of our Father's correction is not only on do's and don'ts and no-no pleasures, then, I would say. But how we become in love is essential >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And I think Philippians 2:13-16 can help to feed us how to become more and more mature in God's love, so we "have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." So, I consider that our Biblical assurance of salvation is not that we said a prayer, or that we can put together verses of Bible assurance, but our assurance is how our Father is correcting us and curing our nature in His love so we are "as He is" "in this world" - - - "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment", John says.

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Becoming more mature in God's love, and abiding in Christ all speak to fellowship, which is exactly John's point in 1 John 1.

Jason0047 said:

Your the only person I have encountered who has ever said this.

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You're the only person I have encountered who believes they have achieved sinless perfection.

It is rather odd.

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I believe self deception and having no truth is rather odd. 1 Jn 1:8

Falling away means exactly what it says. To fall away from something means you lost it.

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Uh, and that would be one's FAITH, not one's salvation. Just read the verse. You are correct about meaning exactly what is says. But it seems you haven't read it. You've just assumed to fall away from your faith INCLUDES loss of salvation. But there are no verses that teach such a thing.

But please look at the verses I put forth in my list and do not just hit the "disagree button." If you were to go thru that list, you will see it is evident that one is not saved if they backslide or fall away.....

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It is surely NOT EVIDENT at all. In fact, there are NO VERSES that state such a thing.

On the contrary, I've shown a number of verses that guarantee that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. But I suppose you've already twisted that verse totally out of shape just as you've twisted 1 Jn 1:8 out of shape.

com7fy8 said:
"I would say a person needs to be made alive in faith so the person can believe."
FreeGrace said:
"I'm sorry my post wasn't clear enough for you."

com7fy8 said:

Hi, Free Grace . . . I did not mean that to disagree with you. I was confirming what I understood you to mean. I think you have explained yourself very well.

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Apparently not. I don't agree that one needs to be made alive in faith so the person can believe.

In fact, no one is even IN the faith until they believe.

Combining Eph 2:5 with v.8 will show the order of regeneration and salvation. We are saved (made alive) through faith.

v.5 shows that regeneration and salvation go together. Can't have one without the other, which is proven from the fact that there is no evidence from Scripture that either one exists alone.

Since they do go together, it is clear that both are preceded by faith. v.8

I said this:
"I've never "interpreted" it either. The statement is crystal clear and indicts your view.

btw, please answer my question about your understanding of "sinless perfection". Do you mean periods of time between sins where one isn't sinning? Or that one has actually achieved a state of sinlessness?"

Jason0047 said:

The best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.

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apparently you didn't even read my post that you've responded to. I haven't interpreted 1 Jn 1:8. The statement is crystal clear and indicts and refutes your view about sinless perfection by the phrase "the one who says they have no sin has deceived themselves and the truth is not in them". What's to interpret?

btw, again you've ignored my question regarding your understanding of the phrase "sinless perfection". Why is that? Are you unable, or have you just not thought it all the way through?

Your interpretation cannot be supported by the context. Only verse 10 appears to say the same thing you desire it to say.

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I believe that is called having 2 witnesses that agree.

But here are some good cross references for 1 John 1:8 (that should hopefully help you to see what it is saying):

1 John 1:6,

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This verse directly supports v.8. And it's about fellowship. Those out of fellowship do not have the truth in them. Just as those who say they have no sin have no truth in them and have deceived themselves.

1 John 1:10,

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Also supports v.8. Those who claimed they've never sinned have made God out to be a liar.

1 John 2:4,

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Once again, supports v.8. Those who claim to know (intimate relationship) with Him but disobey Him is a LIAR and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:9,

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Those who claim to be in the light (fellowship from ch 1) yet hate their brother is in darkness (no fellowship with Christ).

1 John 4:20,

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Same as 2:9

James 2:14-16,

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This passage is about those who don't live out their faith, as perfectly illustrated in v.15 and 16. Such believers are hypocrites. So a faith without works won't save the believer from the legitimate charge of HYPOCRITE.

Titus 1:16.....

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More hypocrites: they claim to know God but by their actions they deny Him.

For the life of me, I cannot imagine why anyone would think any of these verses supports your theory of sinless perfection rather than clearly understanding the issue of needing to be in fellowship by walking in the light, loving our brothers, etc.

btw, please notice that I have engaged EVERY verse you provided. Unlike your responses to any of my posts.

FreeGrace2 said:

OK, you either failed to understand my post or are just ignoring it.

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Do you know what keeping the commandments is? Do you keep His commandments? If not, then there is no truth in you.

Why should we listen to you, if you have no truth in you?

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"I've never "interpreted" it either. The statement is crystal clear and indicts your view.

btw, please answer my question about your understanding of "sinless perfection". Do you mean periods of time between sins where one isn't sinning? Or that one has actually achieved a state of sinlessness?"

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Primarily, Sinless Perfectionism is a state where one has actually stopped or ceased from sin. But salvation is present tense. Salvation has to be lived out day by day; And we will always have "free will." Meaning, even a person who has achieved Sinless Perfectionism still can choose to sin again. Have I acheived Sinless Perfectionism? No. But I believe one day by the power of God working in me, I will be able to do so. The point is that perfection is the goal that one can actually acheive. We know this is a reality because Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.

Is it wrong for me to teach Sinless Perfectionism for others if I have not acheived it personally myself? No. First, I am in the Sanctification process with God (Like many other genuine believers who are striving to live holy so as to overcome sin). Second, I do not live in sin day in and day out. Three, I do not have to bring back the dead by the power of God myself in order to tell others about the truth about such a thing. I did not write the Word of God. I am also commanded by God to preach the Word, too. God's Word is the standard of truth and it is not the lives of people. For example: Noah and his family were the only ones spared because Noah was a righteous man who was a preacher of righteousness. The rest of the world was wicked and as a result they perished in the flood because of their wickedness. In other words, if you lived back then, you would not be able to judge God's good ways by looking at the people around you.

apparently you didn't even read my post that you've responded to.

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I responded to half of one of your posts because it was long and my time is limited.

I haven't interpreted 1 Jn 1:8.

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Yes, you have. Every one who reads any kind of book interprets what it says. The key is whether one is interpreting the words of a book correctly based on the context and sometimes other key factors.

The statement is crystal clear

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You mean, the statement is what you want to hear. I say this because the surrounding context of John's epistle does not teach against Sinless Perfectionism as you claim.

and indicts and refutes your view about sinless perfection by the phrase "the one who says they have no sin has deceived themselves and the truth is not in them". What's to interpret?

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Do you believe all cretians are liars?

btw, again you've ignored my question regarding your understanding of the phrase "sinless perfection". Why is that? Are you unable, or have you just not thought it all the way through?

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This is not my first rodeo in discussion on this topic, so... "no." My belief on Sinless Perfectionism is the same was it was since when I discovered it a year ago. My time is limited and I honestly missed you asking me about it.

I believe that is called having 2 witnesses that agree.

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And yet, no context. For with your reading of these of these two verses amongst the rest of the epistle, they feel foreign and out of place.

This verse directly supports v.8. And it's about fellowship. Those out of fellowship do not have the truth in them. Just as those who say they have no sin have no truth in them and have deceived themselves.

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No. 1 John 1:6 is saying the same thing as 1 John 1:8 in the fact that they BOTH are saying that one is abiding in some kind of immorality and claiming to walk with God. You see verse 8 as a declaration of the man of God in ignoring sin that he is supposed to have. That is not what verse 6 is saying. The point of verse 6 is hypocrisy. It is claiming to be one thing and doing the opposite. That is what verse 8 is saying, too. Verse 10 clarifies verse 8. It is saying if we have not sinned (past tense). Meaning, the context here is an ignoring of sin in the sense of hypocrisy and it is not about the condemnation of trying to acheive a holy walk with God.

Once again, supports v.8. Those who claim to know (intimate relationship) with Him but disobey Him is a LIAR and the truth is not in him.

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Which means they are not saved because nobody can be saved without the Truth (Who is Jesus Christ). Also, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire, too.

Those who claim to be in the light (fellowship from ch 1) yet hate their brother is in darkness (no fellowship with Christ).

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And no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Those who are in darkness are not of God but they are of another kingodom.

This passage is about those who don't live out their faith, as perfectly illustrated in v.15 and 16. Such believers are hypocrites. So a faith without works won't save the believer from the legitimate charge of HYPOCRITE.

More hypocrites: they claim to know God but by their actions they deny Him.

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This is rather surprising. Are you teaching salvation by works?

btw, please notice that I have engaged EVERY verse you provided. Unlike your responses to any of my posts.

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I either missed it or you did not address all the verses I brought forth. For please explain 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, John 5:18, John 8:22.


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EmSw said:

Do you know what keeping the commandments is? Do you keep His commandments? If not, then there is no truth in you.

Why should we listen to you, if you have no truth in you?

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Why do you assume there is no truth in me?

I do know the commandments. But NO ONE can keep them perfectly. Which was the whole point of God giving the Law in the first place. To show our sinfulness, and our need for the Savior.

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3

If you think you are keeping the Law perfectly, then you've disproven Scripture.

The Law was our tutor, but we are no longer under a tutor.

No one will be saved by keeping the Law. Because no one can keep it perfectly. And breaking just 1 of the commandments is equal to breaking ALL OF THEM. James 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

The one who says he has no sin has deceived himself and the truth is not in him. 1 Jn 1:8

Have you kept the Law perfectly?

Jason0047 said:

Primarily, Sinless Perfectionism is a state where one has actually stopped or ceased from sin. But salvation is present tense.

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Here's where you're again wrong. The Bible uses the aorist and future tense for salvation in a number of verses. For example, Paul's answer to the jailer was to believe (aorist) and he will be saved (future).

And Jesus used the past, present and future tenses all in one verse regarding salvation: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24

I either missed it or you did not address all the verses I brought forth. For please explain 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, John 5:18, John 8:22....

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Then go back and review my posts.
I'm getting tired of your tricks of ignoring or "missing" my posts when I actually address the verses you have provided. This conversation has been so one sided it's silly.

And your answer about sinless perfection is still not clear. Having "actually stopped or ceased from sin" can mean between sins, or no longer sinning. Which is it with you?

FreeGrace2 said:

Calvinists place the wrong emphasis on the "elects". We know from Eph 1:4 that God elects believers. And there are no verses that indicate that elects who will believe.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

OK. "He chose us". Who are the "us" in v.4? Paul defines specifically who the "us" are in 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

That's who he is referring to in 1:4 by "us". So it's ONLY believers who He has chosen or elected. And the verse tells us the purpose for this election: "that we would be holy amd blameless". This isn't about choosing people to be saved and he used "holy and blameless" to indicate how saved people are.

Consider 1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Clearly, it is only believers who have been "called to be holy".

2 Pet 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

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We know you talk a lot but the elects are still going to be elects no matter how much you babble

FreeGrace2 said:

Why do you assume there is no truth in me?

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Do you keep His commandments?

FreeGrace2 said:

I do know the commandments. But NO ONE can keep them perfectly. Which was the whole point of God giving the Law in the first place. To show our sinfulness, and our need for the Savior.

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Nowhere will you find that we should keep them PERFECTLY! This is a straw man for those who don't keep His commandments, thus, excusing themselves.

If there was no law mentioning adultery, are you telling me you wouldn't know it was a sin? Do you need a law to tell you murder is a sin?

The law was written for us to obey. By obeying the law, it brought life.

FreeGrace2 said:

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3

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If perhaps Paul had heard the teachings of Jesus, he wouldn't have written verse 21.

Jesus was asked how to inherit eternal life. Notice the first thing Jesus said in these verses in Luke 10 -

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest thou?

What is written in the law? How is it Jesus referred back to the law concerning eternal life? Do you think Jesus might be giving the truth? Or perhaps, you don't believe these words of Jesus. Anyway, here is Jesus' answer -

27 And he answering said, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And He said unto him, thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Even though the lawyer was tempting Jesus, he answered correctly. So I ask, did Jesus lie here? Did Jesus say there was life in the law? Why do you not believe Jesus?

FreeGrace2 said:

If you think you are keeping the Law perfectly, then you've disproven Scripture.

The Law was our tutor, but we are no longer under a tutor.

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You can stop with your brainless straw man. If you are no longer under a tutor, then you are no longer under Jesus. For Jesus was the Word from the beginning, and this includes anything written in the OT. The words of the law and prophets are Jesus Himself, unless you do not think Jesus is the Word.

FreeGrace2 said:

No one will be saved by keeping the Law. Because no one can keep it perfectly. And breaking just 1 of the commandments is equal to breaking ALL OF THEM. James 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

The one who says he has no sin has deceived himself and the truth is not in him. 1 Jn 1:8

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Since no one is saved by keeping the law, how was Moses, David, and the prophets saved? Perhaps you do not think any of the OT people were saved.

I'll admit, I've stumbled, but that doesn't keep me from repenting and changing my sinful ways.

I've never said I have no sin.

FreeGrace2 said:

Have you kept the Law perfectly?

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NO! But I am not told to keep it PERFECTLY. You must have had STRAWberry cake for lunch. You need to quit eating STRAW.

FreeGrace2 said:

Here's where you're again wrong. The Bible uses the aorist and future tense for salvation in a number of verses. For example, Paul's answer to the jailer was to believe (aorist) and he will be saved (future).

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The scenario with the jailer is in reference to initial acceptance of Christ. There is no indication here that he could continue to live in sin on some level and still be saved.

Besides, the Scriptures say that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:12).

And Ephesians 4:17-27 says,

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil."

And Jesus used the past, present and future tenses all in one verse regarding salvation: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24

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Skip back 10 verses and you will discover that in verse 14, Jesus says to a man he healed to: "sin no more, unless a worse thing shall come upon you." Now in your world view, you believe you cannot stop sinning. But if you were to place yourself in this man's shoes or sandals, a worse thing would come upon you if you chose to not to heed the words of Jesus that said, "sin no more."

Then go back and review my posts.
I'm getting tired of your tricks of ignoring or "missing" my posts when I actually address the verses you have provided. This conversation has been so one sided it's silly.

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Why are you assuming the worst of me by thinking I am using some kind of bag of tricks? There are no tricks. How would that help me if I believed that one should always do right? The Scriptures say we are to walk as He walked. My honestly missing your posts in the midst of my busy schedule to reply in the limited time I have is no trick. If the roles were reversed, and you honestly missed what I said, I would not assume the worst of you but I would simply provide for you the post #'s that you missed so as to help you.

And your answer about sinless perfection is still not clear. Having "actually stopped or ceased from sin" can mean between sins, or no longer sinning. Which is it with you?

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I believe I made my position clear. But if you need a real world example: A person who has stopped from sin is sort of like an alcoholic who has now become sober free. Does the fact that he may have stumbled on his road to recovery make him evil? No. Was he able to overcome this sin? Yes. Now, does that mean that another person who struggles to also be sober free and stumbles on his road to recovery (without reaching his goal yet in being sober) equate with him being evil? Not necessarily, no. If he is honestly trying to put away this sin then in time he will overcome with the Lord's help. People can honestly struggle with sin on their road to recovery. But in your world view the alcoholic can still have drinking binges or relapses or get as drunk as a skunk sometimes and he is somehow magically declared as a "sober person" (even if it may jeopardize his life and the lives of others).


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In other words, the Antinomian view is not moral because it is out to serve one's self interests or make an allowance for sin (on some level) with no real lasting change in one's life.

In addition, if one holds to such a belief, they will come to realize that there is no victory with God. One is a prisoner or captive to their sin. For even Jesus says, "he that sins is a slave to sin." But Jesus came to set the captives free. Paul said, "sin shall not have dominion over you." Paul also essentially said you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.


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I said this:
"Calvinists place the wrong emphasis on the "elects". We know from Eph 1:4 that God elects believers. And there are no verses that indicate that elects who will believe.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

OK. "He chose us". Who are the "us" in v.4? Paul defines specifically who the "us" are in 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

That's who he is referring to in 1:4 by "us". So it's ONLY believers who He has chosen or elected. And the verse tells us the purpose for this election: "that we would be holy amd blameless". This isn't about choosing people to be saved and he used "holy and blameless" to indicate how saved people are.

Consider 1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Clearly, it is only believers who have been "called to be holy".

2 Pet 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him."

tulipbee said:

We know you talk a lot but the elects are still going to be elects no matter how much you babble

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I couldn't help but notice that you failed to address anything in my post. Was there anything in my post that can actually be refuted or challenged? Or were you just babbling to babble?

I made specific points about Eph 1:4. Can any of them be refuted? Please be my guest.

If my points weren't understood, I'd be happy to clarify whatever wasn't.

ps: I never said nor suggested that the elects would never be the elects. What a meaningless statement.

EmSw said:

Do you keep His commandments?

Nowhere will you find that we should keep them PERFECTLY! This is a straw man for those who don't keep His commandments, thus, excusing themselves.

If there was no law mentioning adultery, are you telling me you wouldn't know it was a sin? Do you need a law to tell you murder is a sin?

The law was written for us to obey. By obeying the law, it brought life.

If perhaps Paul had heard the teachings of Jesus, he wouldn't have written verse 21.

Jesus was asked how to inherit eternal life. Notice the first thing Jesus said in these verses in Luke 10 -

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest thou?

What is written in the law? How is it Jesus referred back to the law concerning eternal life? Do you think Jesus might be giving the truth? Or perhaps, you don't believe these words of Jesus. Anyway, here is Jesus' answer -

27 And he answering said, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And He said unto him, thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Even though the lawyer was tempting Jesus, he answered correctly. So I ask, did Jesus lie here? Did Jesus say there was life in the law? Why do you not believe Jesus?

You can stop with your brainless straw man. If you are no longer under a tutor, then you are no longer under Jesus. For Jesus was the Word from the beginning, and this includes anything written in the OT. The words of the law and prophets are Jesus Himself, unless you do not think Jesus is the Word.

Since no one is saved by keeping the law, how was Moses, David, and the prophets saved? Perhaps you do not think any of the OT people were saved.

I'll admit, I've stumbled, but that doesn't keep me from repenting and changing my sinful ways.

I've never said I have no sin.

NO! But I am not told to keep it PERFECTLY. You must have had STRAWberry cake for lunch. You need to quit eating STRAW.

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Well, it seems clear enough to me that there wasn't anything in my post that was understood. I guess there's no use in further discussion.

Jason0047 said:

I believe I made my position clear.

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But you haven't yet.

But if you need a real world example: A person who has stopped from sin is sort of like an alcoholic who has now become sober free. Does the fact that he may have stumbled on his road to recovery make him evil? No. Was he able to overcome this sin? Yes. Now, does that mean that another person who struggles to also be sober free and stumbles on his road to recovery (without reaching his goal yet in being sober) equate with him being evil? Not necessarily, no. If he is honestly trying to put away this sin then in time he will overcome with the Lord's help. People can honestly struggle with sin on their road to recovery.

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Then the clear answer to my question is that you're only sinless when you're between sins. Why didn't you just say so? It really wasn't that hard.

An acoholic is ONLY sober between drunken stupors. But if he continues to drink on occasion, he continues to be an alcoholic. Is this understood?

But in your world view the alcoholic can still have drinking binges or relapses or get as drunk as a skunk sometimes and he is somehow magically declared as a "sober person" (even if it may jeopardize his life and the lives of others).....

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No, this is nonsense. That is NOT my view at all. And not even close.

Apparently my explanations have not been absorbed.

Sinless perfection means no longer sinning. So on your "road to recovery", as long as there is any sin, you are NOT sinless. Only between sins.

But apparently that hasn't been grasped by you.

At least we all know now that you still sin. But are sinless between sins. Like all of the rest of us sinners.

Bottom line: you're still a sinner, just as Paul confesses about himself in 1 Tim 1:15. Note that he used the present tense.

FreeGrace2 said:

Well, it seems clear enough to me that there wasn't anything in my post that was understood. I guess there's no use in further discussion.

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I don't think you even understand what you wrote. You are just parroting what you have heard and what was written from man.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"Calvinists place the wrong emphasis on the "elects". We know from Eph 1:4 that God elects believers. And there are no verses that indicate that elects who will believe.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

OK. "He chose us". Who are the "us" in v.4? Paul defines specifically who the "us" are in 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

That's who he is referring to in 1:4 by "us". So it's ONLY believers who He has chosen or elected. And the verse tells us the purpose for this election: "that we would be holy amd blameless". This isn't about choosing people to be saved and he used "holy and blameless" to indicate how saved people are.

Consider 1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Clearly, it is only believers who have been "called to be holy".

2 Pet 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him."

I couldn't help but notice that you failed to address anything in my post. Was there anything in my post that can actually be refuted or challenged? Or were you just babbling to babble?

I made specific points about Eph 1:4. Can any of them be refuted? Please be my guest.

If my points weren't understood, I'd be happy to clarify whatever wasn't.

ps: I never said nor suggested that the elects would never be the elects. What a meaningless statement.

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Why refute a post already refuted a millions times by Christians. I don't have time for that

EmSw said:

I don't think you even understand what you wrote.

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What a ridiculous claim; as if you can read minds. It's not me that hasn't understood my posts, that's for sure.

You are just parroting what you have heard and what was written from man.

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Again, what a ridiculous claim.

tulipbee said:

Why refute a post already refuted a millions times by Christians. I don't have time for that

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In reality, you don't have the ability to refute what I wrote. Because everything I posted about Eph 1:4 is true.

And you claim that there isn't time is only an excuse because of the inability to refute it.

Truth cannot be refuted. Only denied, rejected, ignored. But not refuted.