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Saul was not given the Holy Spirit as part of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ in which the Holy Spirit is given as a seal of our inheritance in Christ.Again, seals have been broken in the Bible. Even seals made by God have been broken. We see this in Revelation. The breaking of the seals which releases God's Wrath during the End Times.
We know the Spirit of God had departed from Saul and he was given an evil spirit instead.
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Do you notice that everything that is 'spiritual' is what is not understood by some?Such nonsense is removed when one realizes that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE, a PROMISE for the day of redemption.
So tell me how God breaks His promise and allows or breaks His GUARANTEED seal which is FOR the day of redemption?
The seal, iow, is guaranteed or promised for the day of redemption. This seal CANNOT be broken in the meantime.
There was no universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. Your examples fails. Even David prayed for the Holy Spirit not to depart.
Well, there you go!! And that goes for His seal of the Holy Spirit, which is guaranteed and promised for the day of redemption.
What does any of this have to do with God's promise for the day of redemption?? Can you cite any condition relating to the sealing with the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14?
This is ridiculous. Context refers to what is IN context with a verse. iow, the passage where the verse is found.
Another flat out failure to understand my views. No, God is NEVER "totally fine" or even "partially fine" with disobedience and unfaithfulness. All you've done here is demonstrate just how much you've failed to grasp my view.
And the ONLY believers in heaven who will be rewarded are those who were faithful and obedience on earth. The rebellious ones will NOT be rewarded. Why do you continue to fail to grasp this?
Yep.Do you notice that everything that is 'spiritual' is what is not understood by some?
There is only one way to understand 'spiritual' things.
Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you on spiritual things.I really do not see how you both cannot see what is plainly written in Scripture.
I thought I made a pretty convincing argument with God's Word.
Then again, I just plant the seeds; And it is God that gives the increase.
In any event, you are both in my prayers for God's love to open your eyes to see the light of the Scriptures on this matter.
May God's love, and peace be unto you both.
And please be well.
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Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you on spiritual things.
It is only with the Holy Spirit that one can go from a lack of understanding to an understanding. That is why Jesus gifted us with the indwelling Holy Spirit, God with us.
I will be praying for you Jason.
The Word tells us that without the Holy Spirit, man does not understand the spiritual things of God. They read the Word without spiritual insight.
1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things
Maybe you do not have spiritual ears to hear? Now that makes sense to me and is according to the Word of God.
In most cases, I generally find out if I have placed a belief upon a person that they did not actually believe. Usually, when I have misunderstood people in the past, they bring that point up about what they really actually believe and I apologize. It is not often that I am wrong about me claiming in what a person believes by what they say. But yes, it can happen. I am only human and I go off the information that is given to me by what they write down on a public forum. Words can be imprecise instruments of communication. It is not like we can mind meld or anything; And it is not like I am intentionally trying to misrepresent what a person believes, either. So if people feel I misrepresented what they actually believe, then they need to talk to me (either by PM or openly here on the public forums).You've born false witness against others on other threads. When I pointed this out to you, what did you say?
You have also been unforgiving, so do not act perfect Jason. You are only fooling yourself and if you do not speak truth than the truth of God is not in you.
Let's get real.
lolI really do not see how you both cannot see what is plainly written in Scripture.
lolI believe I made a pretty solid and convincing argument with God's Word.
Scripture is very clear; those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection, no less) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1 Jn 1:8, 10As a result, I am not so sure my continuing to show what His Word says again is going to help.
Then again, I just plant the seeds; And it is God that gives the increase.
In any event, you are both in my prayers for God's love to open your eyes to see the light of the Scriptures on this matter.
May God's love, and peace be unto you both.
And please be well.....
lolPlease do not be offended, but you honestly cannot expect me to read any kind advice that you are providing.
Wow. This is revealing. "even if…"Even if your advice happens to line up with the Bible, I do not believe you have any authority whatsoever to help me.
We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view.For you have to know that I do not believe your belief is Biblical in any way.
lol, lol
Scripture is very clear; those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection, no less) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1 Jn 1:8, 10
We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view.
Wow. This is revealing. "even if…"
We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view.
Constant mis-characterization of those who don't agree with your false doctrine of sinless perfection makes you a hypocrite, because in mis-characterizing them, you are telling lies about what they believe. Lying is a sin. Therefore, you are not sinless, and your false doctrine of sinless perfection is proven wrong, by your own words.
The words "sinless perfection" mean exactly what they say, not your false spin on the term to try and avoid your own hypocrisy. If you believe in sinless perfection, you are saying that you have ceased from all sin, and are therefore perfect, by your own efforts. I have just shown that you are sinning, and therefore not perfect, and thus, not sinless.
Those of us who oppose your false doctrine do not say that sin does not matter, or that we can sin with impunity, or that we can sin and still be right with God. On the contrary, we do believe in confession of sins, as they occur, and being right with God and following His commandments. None of us deny those things, as you falsely assert.
What we don't believe is that every time we sin, we have become unsaved and need to be saved again. All because of God's Grace. If we sin, God's Grace brings us to repentance, confession, and a restoring of our fellowship with God. So your mis-characterization os us is nothing but lies and falsehoods, trying to tear others down to elevate yourself. You have a prideful, unteachable spirit about you that isn't from God.
You need to repent of your wickedness, and get right with God, and a public admittance of your sin would be a good idea, as well. You are not telling the truth, so your sinless perfection is a sham and a falsehood.
Your beliefs, since they are not Scriptural, are laughable. But really, it's quite sad. Especially since 1 Jn 1:8 DIRECTLY addresses your own claims. And refutes.My belief that you cannot see what the Scriptures say on this matter should not be laughed at.
Sincerity and $2.10 will get you a cup of coffee. Nothing more. People have been sincerely wrong since Adam.I am truly being honest, and sincere with the both of you.
The reality is that you are the one not seeing what the Word clearly says.I also believe by the Spirit of God that you are not seeing the Scriptures for what they are really saying, too.
Problem is, you've not defended your views from Scripture.I also do not believe my defense of the Scriptures should be laughed at, either. Such a response is un-Christ like in my opinion.
The charge of being "out of context" is an easy one to make against anything. However, since that is your charge, please prove it from the Scripture. The fact that the epistle "makes no mention...against sinless perfectionism" is immaterial. FACTS are FACTS.Based off two verses taken out of context, my friend. The rest of the epistle makes no mention of any kind of defense against Sinless Perfectionism.
Nope. Of course we are commanded to not sin. No one would argue that. But such a command does NOT teach or support the untruth of sinless perfection. Believers are simply NOT to sin. Period. However, just look at the REST of 1 Jn 2:1, which again refutes your notions:On the contrary, the surrounding verses teach Sinless Perfectionism because John says for us to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1).
And he also wrote that those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1:8John also says that if any man does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).
That verse says nothing like what you claim here.One cannot keep God's commandments (1 John 2:4) and also break them at the same time by claiming to always have sin in their life (1 John 1:8).
This makes no sense. John wrote 1 John so that believers "MAY NOT SIN". It wasn't a command.Also, you cannot tell someone to "sin not" if one is always going to sin as a part of 1 John 1:8, too.
Those who have deceived themselves and don't have the truth in them cannot understand much of God's Word.The Scriptures say, sin is trangression of the Law (1 John 3:4). One is either sinning or they are not sinning. One is either obeying God's commandments or they are not obeying God's Commandments. Either you believe 1 John 2:4 all the way in what it says or you don't believe it.
I guess you'd put Paul in that silly category as well, huh. The FACT is that believers have 2 natures, a sin nature that came from Adam (Romans 5) and a new nature upon regeneration. And these natures are in CONFLICT with each other.For it does not make sense to say you are keeping God's Commandments and also always claiming to have sin.
A statement coming from one who has fulfilled 1 Jn 1:8. Self deceived and no truth in them.It is an illogical contradiction.
I agee. And this does NOT support or prove sinless perfection. And Scripture refutes that in 1 Jn 1:8 and 10.One is either living holy or one is living in sin. A person cannot do both.
Again, I agree. And, again, this does NOT support or prove sinless perfection.For Christ said no man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other....
I believe it because John said so. 1 Jn 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.Do you really believe this FG2?
I believe that as well.John says those who do not keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.
I've pointed out what sincerity and $2.10 will get one. And many many people have been sincerely wrong.What I had written was not intended to be funny or to be laughed at. I meant what I said sincerely.
The reason is because, according to John's epistle, you have been self deceived and the truth is not in you.I do not believe God and His Word agrees with a sin and still be saved doctrine.
No, it wouldn't. It means that God as Father disciplines His disobedient children. Please read Heb 12.For if such a thing were true, then that would mean God would have to condone a believer's evil.
It is mistaken to think that "gaining entrance into God's kingdom is a reward. Rewards are earned. GRACE refutes ANY notion of earning entrance into heaven. So you're wrong out of the gate.For if a believer taught that they could do evil and be rewarded by gaining entrance into God's Kingdom, it would speak very badly against the good character of the Lord our God.
Coming from one who, according to John, is self deceived and the truth is not in him.For God is good; And in Him is no darkness at all. Hence, why I believe that anyone who teaches such a doctrine does not have any kind of authority to speak on the behalf of God to me (so as to give me any kind of approved of divine advice).
Let's get one thing straight here: no one preaches a "sin and still be saved doctrine", as if teaching that it's ok to sin. It's NOT ok to sin. There are divine consequences for sin. Heb 12 is very clear about that. So please remove that silliness from your skull.Side Note:
Oh, and God chastening the believer does not undo the damage done by preaching a sin and still be saved doctrine, either.
Coming from one who is self deceived and the truth is not in them.If a believing child is led into sin (with the thinking they are saved) because of an OSAS preacher, then I imagine Jesus would have some words to say to this man concerning a millstone.
What in the world? Why does a parent chasten their own children? Do you have absolutely zero understanding of how these things work??In addition, what does chastening even supposed to do for the believer? Is it to get them to stop sinning?
Since you admit no clue about what chastening is for, no answer will help you. But why do you think that one "must claim they always have sin"? We all have a sin nature (you included). And we therefore, will continue to sin.So what does chastening do then if one must claim they always have sin?
Yet, the Scriptures say,
"They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness"
(Hebrews 12:10) (New International Version).
What he means here is that if one is never chastened for his sins, he isn't a child of God."But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8).
No it isn't. The phrase sinless perfectionism indicates ceasing from sin altogether. Which the Bible does not teach.Sinless Perfectionism is believing and taking action so as to "sin not."
The point of 2:1 is that John wrote that believers "MAY not sin". It was NOT a command. Please let that sink in.These are the very two words uttered by John himself in 1 John 2:1. He says, "sin not."
So, from what you've just posted, it only means to try to "sin not" then? is that what "taking action" means then?That is what Sinless Perfectionism means.
You've quoted from a disputed passage. Scholars have noted that John 7:53-8:11 is NOT FOUND in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have those verses.Jesus said something similar. For Jesus says to the woman who was caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Jesus says to the man he healed to: "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon thee." "Sin no more" is what Jesus said. And I believe those very words He said to us.
That's what John wanted. For his audience to not sin. But He didn't command them. He was encouraging them not to. But in any case, He also added, which it seems, you love to ignore and skip over, WHEN WE DO SIN, we have an Advocate from the Father, Jesus Christ. And He died for ALL our sins, so that when we confess our sins, we are cleansed and forgiven. Not saved again. If that were true, the Bible would have said so.That is what I am telling you to do, as well. "Sin no more."
No, that is not true. You've quoted from a disputed passage.For it is what Jesus said.
I'm NOT against them. But I am against the notion of sinless perfection. As long as we are in our bodies of corruption, we have a sin nature, and there WILL BE a struggle between them until we die and leave our physical bodies.So if you are against the words "sin no more", or "sin not", then you are against the very plain words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle John.
Please do some basic research on the Greek word for "perfect". And note all the meanings and usages.For Jesus even said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Well, think about it, my friend. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.
First, Paul says, "Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6). By the way you speak, I do not get that impression, my friend. So I would appreciate it if you talk to me kindly and with respect and stick to the Scriptures.
Second, I do not believe I am telling a lie about what people believe here, either. People have made the claim here that they will always have sin in their life because of 1 John 1:8.
Third, I am not denying that believers cannot struggle with sin and confess such sin so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. But this leads us to what John says to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). This leads us to what John says: "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).
Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." I do not see how "sin no more" equates with one to keep on sinning.
Oh, and yes; I do not abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto spiritual death. Such sins would be murder, hate, theft, adultery, idolatry, and drunkenness. Paul says those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. John says those who do such sins will face the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Paul says we used to be sinners as a part of our old life, but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (Ephesians 4:17-27) (Colossians 3:5-10).
Also, let me ask you. Do you believe you can stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about for 1 hour? How about 1 day? Does not logic dictate that what you can do for 5 minutes you can do for even longer? Do you always sin while brushing your teeth? I say this because many have claimed that 1 John 1:8 is a refutation of Sinless Perfectionism by the fact that 1 John 1:8 is saying that a believer is never without sin.
But how can you follow His commandments if you also break them at the same time? John says we are either obeying His Commandments or we are disobeying His commandments in 1 John 2:3-4.
Also, when the OSAS propentn claims they always have sin as a per 1 John 1:8, they are sinning without impunity.
The purpose of chastening is not punishment but it is correction so as to lead a person back to holiness and right living and not to remain in one's sins. For chastening cannot be a form of punishment because both believers and unbelievers share the same harships of this life. True punishment and reward is in the after-life for a person.
Okay, so are you saying that a believer can not sin by the fact that He can be restored to fellowship with God again in holiness? Are you saying it is possible for a believer to stop sinning?
No dear sir. I believe you are the one that needs to rethink what you believe and I sincerely believe you should to pray to the Lord about it. I say this because we both know God would never allow one of His people to think they can sin and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. God is good; And there is no darkness in Him at all.
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