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How in the world is faith acquired through grace?I agree with you that faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.
How in the world is faith acquired through grace?
Grace is that Christ died for all of us to be reconciled back to God and asks for nothing but our faith in Him.
Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ died for us while we were without belief.
How is that gift of salvation that we do not deserve, faith?
Pls explain?
All NATIONS of men and not every individual. Your application of this statement is intellectual suicide and you know it. Paul said that the gospel was preached to "EVERY creature under heaven" Colossians 1:23. After saying this he asked for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach the word, 4:3. No one in his right mind takes Paul to mean that the gospel had been preached to every individual man. And why would Paul after saying that ask for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach it if every individual had heard it?I said this:
"Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men
Do you believe in Sinless Perfectionism?
Do you believe that a believer can stop sinning (Which is Sinless Perfectionism)?
So far, I have not met an OSAS proponent who believes in Sinless Perfectionism.
Also, people have made the claim that they can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved here.
Do you believe that you can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?
Do you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying you will always have some kind of sin in your life?
If so, then we must conclude you are saved despite having this sin.
Unless of course you believe confession of sin is necessary for salvation.
No, and the bible does not teach it.
A believer is (or should be ) always striving to be more like Christ.
That's where God's Grace comes in, and covers where we still fall short.
Because we live in the real world, and struggle daily with sin.
We have no delusions about the fight against sin, and look forward to the Day when we will no longer be subject to it.
Not falling into that trap, because you have a different idea of what that means. There could be sins in anyone's life that they are not even aware of to be sins. Under your view, even those sins could keep a person from salvation.
What 1 John 1:8 says is that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. That tells me that The Sinless Perfection crowd (which you obviously are one of) are deceiving themselves, because to claim that they have no sin is itself a sin.
I am saved by faith in the risen Christ, and cleansed by His Shed Blood. My sins have already been dealt with on Calvary, and I am joined to Christ and in Him with regard to the law, to sin, and to any other thing against me.
1 John 1:9
Since this is one of your favorite passages "in refuting OSAS or in the thinking that one can sin and still be saved" --- please show us where it refutes OSAS or even the thinking that one can sin and still be saved.
Since this particular passage is one of your all time favorites, explaining or attempting to explain it will go a long way toward showing everyone your biggest and best proof or your biggest and best lack of logic.
Surely your own favorite passage should really make or break your case for us.
I wait with bated breath for you to give it your best shot.
I'm pretty sure I wont be alone.
Is that really what Titus 2:11 actually says? No. It says "pas". That means all. Not "some from all nations", as you're trying to spin it.All NATIONS of men and not every individual.
Every use of "all" must be understood from its OWN CONTEXT. Not other cherry picked verses.Your application of this statement is intellectual suicide and you know it. Paul said that the gospel was preached to "EVERY creature under heaven" Colossians 1:23. After saying this he asked for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach the word, 4:3. No one in his right mind takes Paul to mean that the gospel had been preached to every individual man. And why would Paul after saying that ask for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach it if every individual had heard it?
I believe you really mean Calvinist minds.Sound minds realize that the terms " all men" and "every creature" in biblical times simply meant "all NATIONS of men" and not Jews only.
Nope. All men. That is exactly what the Scripture SAYS. Not your spin on it.So the grace of God has brought salvation to all NATIONS of men.
Again, every use of "all" must be understood within its OWN CONTEXT, not from some other cherry picked verses.On Mars Hill Paul said that God has given "all men" the assurance that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. If we apply this statement the way you apply other "all men" statements we must conclude that no individual denies the resurrection of Christ.
Uh, excuse me, but Greek lexicons have been written by real Greek scholars, who by definition, KNOW the culture of the Greeks, so that they can tell us how the words were used THEN. Those who wrongly think that Greek lexicons are tainted by "western definitions" can just throw their lexcons out the window. And make up whatever definition they think is right.I have told you these things before but you stubbornly continue to impose your Western definitions on the ancient scriptures.
No, the real reason why you "cannot continue" with me is because you continue to FAIL to refute what I post and continue to FAIL to prove your own claims.This is why I cannot continue with you very long because I would lose control and get myself permanently banned. I have no patience with those who refuse to see.
I guess I can see why you worded it the way that you did.Faith is acquired by hearing the Word of God preached to us.
“Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.” Romans 10:17
We hear the Word, respond to the Word and that Word brings us saving faith.
Through that faith we are born again and we are justified before God.
Titus 2:11 tells us that “the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.”
That grace is the living and abiding Word of God – the Son of God incarnate – and the good news that accompanies His work on our behalf (the gospel that we heard that resulted in faith).
"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:14-17
Saving faith can only come where grace has first appeared.
Until grace appears there is nothing to have faith in.
Faith does not come first.
Grace comes first.
Faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.
We are "saved" through faith. But we receive faith through grace.
"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
By the way – and perhaps a little ironically - we also receive life changing grace through faith as well as saving faith through grace.
That is because “grace” means favor and blessing and we receive favor and blessings by faith.
“You do not have because you do not ask.” James 4:2
“Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” Hebrews 11:6
Well, actually the Bible does clearly teach Sinless Perfectionism.
1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.
It does not say that the people mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 are believers.In 2 Timothy 3:1-9 it says there are those who have a FORM of Godliness but they deny the power thereof. In 2 Timothy 2:19 it says, let everyone that names the name of Christ to depart from iniquity. This is the context of of 2 Timothy 3:1-9. This same believer Paul warns us about is also the one mentioned in the book of Jude, too. For this type of believer has slipped among the church unaware in Jude and turning the grace of our God into a doctrine of immorality or lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).....
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Heavenly Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. If Jesus told you to be perfect (Which would include not sinning), then Jesus would be lying or tricking you into believing that you could be perfect (When in reality you could not be perfect like the Heavenly Father).
This character really has succeeded in uniting every evangelical on the thread in their common fight against his false gospel.As Marv even pointed out.
It does not say that the people mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 are believers.
2 Timothy 3:19 (which comes after 2 Timothy 3:1-9 duhh) is NOT the "contest of 2 Timothy 3:1-9.
Nor does it say that the people in Jude 1:4 are believers.
You twist the scriptures with your assumptions. You make those assumptions because they seem to back up what you already believe.
If that passage is your favorite passage to refute OSAS then your doctrine is in big trouble. Because that passage does not such thing.
In fact your explanation of it gives evidence of your folly.
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14
No one here denies that we have been made perfect. We just deny that that perfection status comes though our own perfections.
And please don't tell us again and again that we need to refrain from sin in order to be holy. Everyone knows that already.
Here's your error. WHEN one believes in Christ, they receive Christ's imputed righteousness THEN. It isn't a come and go thing, as you seem to insinuate.No, people here are not claiming to "not sin" in order to be holy. Many here believe that the imputed righteousness of Christ over extends to cover them even if they are sinning....
Here's your error. WHEN one believes in Christ, they receive Christ's imputed righteousness THEN. It isn't a come and go thing, as you seem to insinuate.
Here's some verses about what the Bible says about righteousness:
Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
There is no evidence or claim of sinless perfection in Scripture.Dear Marvin:
Please read carefully Free Grace's post above. He is claiming that one can sin and still be saved.
Because the Bible never says such a thing. However, sin breaks fellowship, not relationship, with God.He does not believe sin can separate him from God after becoming a believer.
Yep. Each and every one.Do you really want me to explain these verses? It would be no trouble for me to do so. Do you really want to explain what the text says in context?
I have already. But it seems to me that you don't really read with attention what I've posted.Actually, I will do so later, not only for your benefit, but for the benefit of those who may come accross this website and read it.
In any event, in the mean time, perhaps you can provide for me a real world example out of what you believe.....
Everyone but you, and whatever bizarre previous denomination you were a part of (Pentecostal maybe?), would disagree with your stance that a sinner, once God has begun the sanctifying work in them, who sins will not be saved. Most certainly Calvinists will disagree with you because we believe, unlike the Armenian, that the sanctifying work started is permanent! So long as men remain in this world they have the remnants of the old sinful nature clinging to them; surrounded by the most alluring and most subtle temptations of the Devil. No man is equal to Christ in that, when tempted by the Devil, they can resist him every time.Dear Marvin:
Please read carefully Free Grace's post above. He is claiming that one can sin and still be saved.
He does not believe sin can separate him from God after becoming a believer. What concerns me is that you argue against me on the topic of holiness in regards to one's right standing with God, too. So I am leaning that you believe something similar. If I got your belief wrong, then please explain it to me so that there is no room for confusion on what you believe in regards to this matter.
Thank you.
And may God bless you.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
....
I'm interested in reading Jason's explanations too.Yep. Each and every one.
I have already. But it seems to me that you don't really read with attention what I've posted.
1 Thess 5:4-11 is a passage that contrasts the lifestyle of unbeliever (darkness, drunkness, asleep) with how the believer is supposed to live (light, sober, alert).
Then Paul admonishes the Thessalonians to not be like others (v.6).
However, Paul concludes with this promise:
v.10 - who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Is that real world enough for you?
iow, regardless of the believer's lifestyle, "we will live together with Him".
In case someone wants to use this passage as an excuse for "doing their own thing", there are many warnings in Scripture of God's discipline for disobedience and faithlessness.
I agree. It is heretical.Everyone but you, and whatever bizarre previous denomination you were a part of (Pentecostal maybe?), would disagree with your stance that a sinner, once God has begun the sanctifying work in them, who sins will not be saved. Most certainly Calvinists will disagree with you because we believe, unlike the Armenian, that the sanctifying work started is permanent! So long as men remain in this world they have the remnants of the old sinful nature clinging to them; surrounded by the most alluring and most subtle temptations of the Devil. No man is equal to Christ in that, when tempted by the Devil, they can resist him every time.
It is possible for believers to fall away, stumbling temporarily. A parent walking with their child may tell them to stay out of the path of approaching traffic, and they may mess up, trip and step off the curb, but their parent has no intention of ever letting the child getting hit by oncoming traffic. Our walk with Christ is just the same way. The warnings you speak of in Scriptures are not designed to show a man his ability to keep them, but rather his duty to do so. A man SHOULD follow Christ's example and love God always, this does not mean a man CAN always do so. These commands are incitement to greater faith and prayer, as well as serve as restraints on unbelievers.
Take your false and heretical teachings and elsewhere.
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