Logical Problem with Predestination

[Dale]

There is a logical problem with the Calvinist version of predestination. According to Calvinists, an unsaved person is dead in sin until God zaps them and makes them a Christian. To Calvinists, t he unsaved can't know anything about Christianity.


Here is the question: If the unsaved have no desire for religion, why is there false religion? It seems to me that if the Calvinists are right, there would be those who have no religion and those who have the correct religion. I am not seeing any reason why false religion would arise.


Yet, when we look around, the world is full of false religion. Whatever your religion is, most of the religion in the world is false.


For believers in free will, false religion isn't difficult to explain. God planted a religious impulse in every soul but He did not tell us in detail what to do with that religious impulse.




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[Eliwho]

There is a logical problem with the Calvinist version of predestination. According to Calvinists, an unsaved person is dead in sin until God zaps them and makes them a Christian. To Calvinists, t he unsaved can't know anything about Christianity.


Here is the question: If the unsaved have no desire for religion, why is there false religion? It seems to me that if the Calvinists are right, there would be those who have no religion and those who have the correct religion. I am not seeing any reason why false religion would arise.




Yet, when we look around, the world is full of false religion. Whatever your religion is, most of the religion in the world is false.


For believers in free will, false religion isn't difficult to explain. God planted a religious impulse in every soul but He did not tell us in detail what to do with that religious impulse.




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What? Don't you have a Bible?

 

[Jipsah]

There is a logical problem with the Calvinist version of predestination.

Here's all you need to know about predestination (all emphasis is mine):

Ephesians 1

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

[Dale]

What? Don't you have a Bible?

You're evading the question. I said in the title I was bringing up a logical problem.


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[Dale]

Here's all you need to know about predestination (all emphasis is mine):

Ephesians 1

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The Parables contain the core of Christ's teaching.

I don't see predestination in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats.


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[Keachian]

Here is the question: If the unsaved have no desire for religion, why is there false religion? It seems to me that if the Calvinists are right, there would be those who have no religion and those who have the correct religion. I am not seeing any reason why false religion would arise.

Romans 1, esp. v23 to me explains why there is false religion, the unbeliever is enemies with God (Rom 5:10) and so instead of facing up to the disparity between their sinfulness and the Holiness of God they reject him and replace him with anything they feel that they can. Everyone knows that God is there and God is absolutely Holy (Rom 1:18) the difference between the believer and the non is that God has turned the hearts of the believers towards him.

 

[Keachian]

The Parables contain the core of Christ's teaching.

I don't see predestination in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats.

The Judgment is not a parable.

Also I'd point to John 6:35-51 quite clearly spell out a few things:

Only those whom the Father wills are sent to Jesus (44a, 37a, 45c)

Jesus will not cast out those whom the Father has sent (37b, 39a)

This group will believe in Christ (40b)

Those who believe will have eternal life (40b-c, 44b, 47, 50b, 51c-d)

 

[New_Wineskin]

There is a logical problem with the Calvinist version of predestination. According to Calvinists, an unsaved person is dead in sin until God zaps them and makes them a Christian. To Calvinists, t he unsaved can't know anything about Christianity.

Do you have a citation for that or is that your interpretation of what Calvin wrote ?

 

[Knee V]

My problem would be worded somewhat differently. Why are there false religions other than Christianity if "spiritual death" means what the Reformed say it means? If spiritual death means what they say it means, why aren't all non-Christians simply upright hairless apes with absolutely no spiritual inclination?

 

[Frenchfrye]

The Parables contain the core of Christ's teaching.

I don't see predestination in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats.


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we are all destined to be in heaven with Jesus. we are heirs to a throne in a sense, by not following Christ we are throwing away our inheritance.

 

[RisingSpirit]

.... false religion...

False religion and psychology are pretty much the same.

This reminds me of Bill Clinton asking the lawyers to define "sex"

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Define false religion.

 

[elopez]

There is a logical problem with the Calvinist version of predestination. According to Calvinists, an unsaved person is dead in sin until God zaps them and makes them a Christian. To Calvinists, t he unsaved can't know anything about Christianity.

I'm no Calvinist but my belief in predestination is similar to theirs. The unsaved can know things of Christianity, they just aren't saved.

Here is the question: If the unsaved have no desire for religion, why is there false religion? It seems to me that if the Calvinists are right, there would be those who have no religion and those who have the correct religion. I am not seeing any reason why false religion would arise.

The unsaved have a desire to sin. If that means joining and following some false religion I see no reason why one could not do that, even under the assumption of predestination. The objection there seems unreasonable.

Yet, when we look around, the world is full of false religion. Whatever your religion is, most of the religion in the world is false.

Seems that way.

For believers in free will, false religion isn't difficult to explain. God planted a religious impulse in every soul but He did not tell us in detail what to do with that religious impulse.

Don't quote me on this but I am sure even Calvinists believe in free will. Predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive, anyway. That said, your objection or "logical problem" with predestination doesn't really stand to reason.

 

[Dale]

Do you have a citation for that or is that your interpretation of what Calvin wrote ?

From a Calvinist site:

Quote
Thus, if one is born a slave to sin and spiritually dead--is "TOTALLY DEPRAVED or spiritually unable"--then salvation must ULTIMATELY be a free or UNCONDITIONAL gift, in no way finally dependent or contingent on one's actions--back to the "U" or "UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION": God simply reaches down and chooses to breathe life into some spiritual corpses and pass over others.
End Quote


Link:
Calvin's TULIP


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[Dale]

Elopez in post #12:
“Don't quote me on this but I am sure even Calvinists believe in free will. Predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive, anyway. ”


It seems to me that the only purpose of predestination is to eliminate or exclude free will.






“As did the German religious reformer Martin Luther, Calvin denied that human beings were capable of free will after the Fall of Adam, but he went farther than Luther in elaborating a doctrine of predestination—that certain persons are elected by God to salvation, while others are rejected by him and consigned to eternal damnation.”


--Encarta Encyclopedia 2005 under Calvinism


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[Rick Otto]

quote=Dale;There is a logical problem with the Calvinist version of predestination. According to Calvinists, an unsaved person is dead in sin until God zaps them and makes them a Christian. To Calvinists, t he unsaved can't know anything about Christianity.

The gospel is foolishness to those who haven't been zapped. To those of us who've been zapped, it is the power of God. 1Cor1:18.

It isn't that they can't intellectualy know & grasp Christianity, it's that it doesn't make sense to them. The unzapped (natural) man knows & desires nothing spiritual. 1Cor2:14

Here is the question: If the unsaved have no desire for religion, why is there false religion?

They have no desire for true religion. The desire for false religion is the desire for self righteousness, so unlike the gospel, false (self) religion makes perfect sense. In the vernacular, Bob Dylan put it this way;"Ya Gotta Serve Somebody" (the will isn't "free")

It seems to me that if the Calvinists are right, there would be those who have no religion and those who have the correct religion. I am not seeing any reason why false religion would arise.

Everyone wants God or god, on their side. In the false case, power perceived is power achieved. Mutual self delusion societies.

For believers in free will, false religion isn't difficult to explain. God planted a religious impulse in every soul but He did not tell us in detail what to do with that religious impulse

Are you referring to Romans 1:20?

 

[New_Wineskin]

From a Calvinist site:

Quote
Thus, if one is born a slave to sin and spiritually dead--is "TOTALLY DEPRAVED or spiritually unable"--then salvation must ULTIMATELY be a free or UNCONDITIONAL gift, in no way finally dependent or contingent on one's actions--back to the "U" or "UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION": God simply reaches down and chooses to breathe life into some spiritual corpses and pass over others.
End Quote


Link:
Calvin's TULIP


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That isn't what you wrote in the OP . I am not a Calvinist . I was interested in seeing if a rational discussion was going to happen . It can't happen if the OP sets out mocking something and then makes a false pretense of wishing to be "logical" about the topic .

 

[shturt678]

The Judgment is not a parable.

Also I'd point to John 6:35-51 quite clearly spell out a few things:

Only those whom the Father wills are sent to Jesus (44a, 37a, 45c)

Jesus will not cast out those whom the Father has sent (37b, 39a)

This group will believe in Christ (40b)

Those who believe will have eternal life (40b-c, 44b, 47, 50b, 51c-d)

Remember Jn.6:35-51 must be construed with Jn.15:1-6 where they are cast out. My end point is the "Parable of Judgment" (Lk.13:24-30) is 'judgment' within a parable.

 

[Knee V]

Zap... like the Holy Ghost Gun?

 

[pshun2404]

Here's all you need to know about predestination (all emphasis is mine):

Ephesians 1

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Hey! You left off Paul's conclusive summation in verses 13 and 14. I remember this is what I was taught to do in mt Calvinist training, only doing so conveniently eliminates the most important part...

First we hear, after that we believe and trust, and as a result of our faith response, we receive the Holy Spirit...please complete the thought...to do otherwise is to make the scripture conform to your doctrine instead of making your doctrine conform to the scriptures.

God is revealed through His word (the gospel is the power of God unto salvation not some arbitrary choice) this is Grace (the Spirit convicting us by the word of sin and righteousness) then those who faithe will reeceve the Spirit. Not those arbitrarily chosen to reeceve the Spirit are made to faithe when they hear...that is just bad hermaneutics

Paul

 

[Keachian]

Hey! You left off Paul's conclusive summation in verses 13 and 14. I remember this is what I was taught to do in mt Calvinist training, only doing so conveniently eliminates the most important part...

First we hear, after that we believe and trust, and as a result of our faith response, we receive the Holy Spirit...please complete the thought...to do otherwise is to make the scripture conform to your doctrine instead of making your doctrine conform to the scriptures.

God is revealed through His word (the gospel is the power of God unto salvation not some arbitrary choice) this is Grace (the Spirit convicting us by the word of sin and righteousness) then those who faithe will reeceve the Spirit. Not those arbitrarily chosen to reeceve the Spirit are made to faithe when they hear...that is just bad hermaneutics

Paul

I see nothing in those verses that affect Calvinism, in fact they only further support it.