Lock the front door - little Billy is trying to escape!

[Sophia7]

If I understand the content of the videos there will be a "change" in the FB's of the Church. This 'change' is what they said some SDA members would rejoice over while others would curse the change as babylon, fallen church or something to that effect.

It's doubtful that there will be a change in the actual FBs to get rid of EGW. Changes in those have to be approved by the General Conference in session, which means that Adventist delegates from all over the world (including many countries in which most Adventists are very traditional) would need to vote and approve any official changes. The GC did add one FB in recent years, so there are now 28 rather than 27, but they are not likely to remove any of the FBs. My observation is that most changes that do happen in Adventism don't come from the top down; they usually happen at the grassroots level, in interpretation and application of those beliefs (including EGW's writings) by individual members and sometimes pastors of the local churches.

 

[OldStudent]

OldStudent,

How many of the believers at Antioch stayed by Paul after he was in chains in the capital at Rome?

Were you speaking concerning the thousands of the Pharisaical party that had joined with the believers at Jerusalem; to whom James referred when Paul made his last visit before being taken into custody by the Roman government? James told Paul that they were zealous after the law.

The wildfire died down to some localized smoldering and creeping as you read the Acts and the letters of Paul to the churches and Revelation 2 and 3.

Fire travels faster uphill than downhill. Water travels faster downhill than uphill.

Joe

You are right about the dampening of progress, even quite early. I am seeing some clues in the Acts 11 passage that may relate to the early influx of members to why "little Billy" is looking for the exit as being discussed in this thread.

 

[OldStudent]

A step in the right direction, but they really haven't "got it" yet. Think commercially. You are a customer. You are doing them a favour by being there. They are not doing you the favour by graciously allowing you in to join them. They can't have it both ways. They can have a large membership, but they have to accept they can't tell you all exactly how to think. Or they can have the control but then they can't get too upset if customers decide they don't like it and go to a competitor.

Avonia, what an interesting take on tithing. Yes, why shouldn't you decide how and where your tithe is spent? I've never heard that suggested in church yet, I wonder why?!?

I once told an associate, "If I EVER go into sales, PLEASE take me to the shrink to have my head examined." Yet I have been around those in sales. A key idea from them did stick to me like a burdock, "You don't sell products, you sell benefits." So what "benefits" are the church selling? I am inclined to say the "standards" or "beliefs" of the church are not inclined to sell well. Many of them interact poorly with things I would really rather be doing and I really don't need to put up with the grief. Right?! Could this be a reason "little Billy" is looking for the exit? So what saleable benefit DOES the church have?
I have four children. The first has 2 masters degrees including an M. Div. The next won't, at this point, be caught dead in church. The next two are just out of touch with it and just might show up for a good enough reason. One was asked why he was out. His reply went something like this: "When the church lives its mission of service I might be interested."
As for general membership having a say in the use of tithe, To what extent would you accept anyone giving you a paycheck and telling you how to spend it? Your tithe is the "Levites" check. Recent Sabbath School lessons have been dealing with God's proprietary view of His chosen and delegated authority (Numbers 12, 16, 17, 18). Don't mess with them! They are His to deal with.

 

[Avonia]

I am seeing some clues in the Acts 11 passage that may relate to the early influx of members to why "little Billy" is looking for the exit as being discussed in this thread.

It might be interesting to hear a bit more about this from you.

 

[AzA]

I am inclined to say the "standards" or "beliefs" of the church are not inclined to sell well. Many of them interact poorly with things I would really rather be doing and I really don't need to put up with the grief. Right?! Could this be a reason "little Billy" is looking for the exit?

This is a common question across many denominations, and one that suggests deep cynicism about people who leave churches or engage them outside the scheduled services.

One was asked why he was out. His reply went something like this: "When the church lives its mission of service I might be interested."

I find this response more consistent with those I've heard from people who are disillusioned attendees or non-attending.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

This is a common question across many denominations, and one that suggests deep cynicism about people who leave churches or engage them outside the scheduled services.

I agree completely. If we are going to assess why people leave, why not ask the people who left and take their responses at face value? We can assume that people leave because of hurt feelings or because of a desire to be like the world, but that assumption may never lead us to genuine understanding.

I also agree that this is an issue discussed by many denominations, many of which are equally retiscent to go directly the people who left and ask them why they left.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

If we are going to assess why people leave, why not ask the people who left and take their responses at face value?

Because we know at some level that many people are leaving because they no longer find us relevant. Not because they are hurt. That's a terrifying thought. Much easier to either write them off as "nose out of joint" or "deceived."

I have many friends who have nothing but kind things to say about the Adventist church, but are no longer engaged because they don't feel aligned with the work we are doing. If they felt aligned, they would reengage. Well, many of them would.

I believe this to be at the root of the movement to eliminate this forum. The fact that it's peaceful and everyone's view makes a lot of sense is highly threatening. If there are no sides, how will we declare war on the enemy?

 

[Joe67]

The counsel from Ecclesiates is still useful.

Eccl 11:8-10
8 But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity.

9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.

10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity. KJV

God's basic counsel to us in the calling in faith is to go forth, leave the scene of our nativity. How would we gain experience? How would we ever test the spirits, to understand which are of God in Christ Jesus of Nazareth?

Jesus told the disciples to go forth. The desire to keep people congregated in large congregations will produce the same results as it did in Jerusalem; being zealous of the law, even unto violence.

The more you try to bind and contain, the more you will have people trying to escape, once they are acquainted with the day by day workings of a church. Only by providing an occasion to serve the desires of the flesh and the mind can large congregations be maintained; producing corruption of body, soul and spirit. We need to remember the experience of Jereboam and his efforts to keep the people under his domain.

Small groups stay together out of depending upon each other and being acquainted with each other, as long as a demanding leader does not rise up with a rod and begin beating the members, demanding more controlled activity. A house-band does not maintain through a bully pulpit.

Joe

 

[Mankin]

Well the issue is that Adventism is somewhat of an inclosed religion. It may give the feeling of openness but it has a strong sub culture that can be difficult for new members to join. In addition, leaving the church is considered almost on par with loosing your salvation.

This type of mindset tends to lead to protectionism and isolationism. That's why the church still tends to push sending your kids to Adventist schools. This is also why any questioning of Adventist doctrine and/or standards is treated like heresy to be quenched. Frankly, the Adventist church starts to loose some of its shine when you get out there and realize that not everything your church says may be true/applicable.

To Avonia: It's much harder to demonize the "lost, deceived, heretics" when you realize that they're just normal people just like you.

 

[Avonia]

To Avonia: It's much harder to demonize the "lost, deceived, heretics" when you realize that they're just normal people just like you.

Indeed.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I believe this to be at the root of the movement to eliminate this forum. The fact that it's peaceful and everyone's view makes a lot of sense is highly threatening. If there are no sides, how will we declare war on the enemy?

I take heart that someone else sees this too.

BFA