living creatures theory of history

[RandyPNW]

Rev 6.7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

These angels appear to encourage the advance of the Church in NT history. Perhaps they represent a progressive development of the Church in history, the lion representing the 1st 500 years, the ox representing the 2nd 500 years, the man representing the 3rd 500 years, and the flying eagle representing the 4th 500 years?

It's purely a theory in my mind, but if I was to quickly characterize these periods of development in the Church I might see it as the Roman Imperial stage, the Expansion into Europe stage, the Catholic stage, and the Evangelical stage. What do you think?

 

[Marilyn C]

The 4 Living Creatures.

Before the throne, in the midst, we are shown what seem to be `living creatures.` These are representations of the Lord`s ministries as to how He will bring restoration.


`Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal.

And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne,

were four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.



The first living creature was like a lion,

the second living creature like a calf,

the third living creature had a face like a man,

and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.`

(Rev. 4: 6 & 7)





The 4 living creatures are Christ`s Spirit of life, shown separately as 4 but in reality blended majestically into one Royal Divine Person, the Lord Jesus Christ.



Christ the King – (Lion)

Christ the Sacrifice (Heir) – (Calf)

Christ the Mediator – (Man)

Christ the Creator – (Eagle)





For Christ to fulfill God`s plan, His covenant to man, He needs to function in each area.



Christ is given the ultimate authority to rule, (Lion)

Christ humbled Himself to be the ultimate sacrifice, (Calf).

Christ is both God & man to be the Mediator of both, (Man).

Christ has ultimate power to create all things new, (Eagle).

 

[grafted branch]

Rev 6.7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

These angels appear to encourage the advance of the Church in NT history. Perhaps they represent a progressive development of the Church in history, the lion representing the 1st 500 years, the ox representing the 2nd 500 years, the man representing the 3rd 500 years, and the flying eagle representing the 4th 500 years?

It's purely a theory in my mind, but if I was to quickly characterize these periods of development in the Church I might see it as the Roman Imperial stage, the Expansion into Europe stage, the Catholic stage, and the Evangelical stage. What do you think?

I’ve looked at the four beasts before and I came away with a very similar view as @Marilyn C that they represent different aspects of Christ. I think they are also linked specifically to each of the seals that they open.

The first beast is like a lion, in Revelation 5:5 He is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Juda.

The second beast is like a calf or heifer, this beast is also the one who opens the seal of the red horse. I don’t normally quote non-canonical sources but according to the epistle of Barnabas the red heifer is a type of Christ, to which I agree.

The third beast had a face of a man, Jesus is also the Son of man.

The fourth beast is like a flying eagle, Exodus 19:4 God declares He carried them on eagles wings and brought them unto myself.

If you’d like I can go into further detail on how I view the likeness of each beast and its relationship to the seal that it opens.

 

[Marilyn C]

I’ve looked at the four beasts before and I came away with a very similar view as @Marilyn C that they represent different aspects of Christ. I think they are also linked specifically to each of the seals that they open.

The first beast is like a lion, in Revelation 5:5 He is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Juda.

The second beast is like a calf or heifer, this beast is also the one who opens the seal of the red horse. I don’t normally quote non-canonical sources but according to the epistle of Barnabas the red heifer is a type of Christ, to which I agree.

The third beast had a face of a man, Jesus is also the Son of man.

The fourth beast is like a flying eagle, Exodus 19:4 God declares He carried them on eagles wings and brought them unto myself.

If you’d like I can go into further detail on how I view the likeness of each beast and its relationship to the seal that it opens.

That would be good to hear.

 

[RandyPNW]

I’ve looked at the four beasts before and I came away with a very similar view as @Marilyn C that they represent different aspects of Christ. I think they are also linked specifically to each of the seals that they open.

The first beast is like a lion, in Revelation 5:5 He is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Juda.

The second beast is like a calf or heifer, this beast is also the one who opens the seal of the red horse. I don’t normally quote non-canonical sources but according to the epistle of Barnabas the red heifer is a type of Christ, to which I agree.

The third beast had a face of a man, Jesus is also the Son of man.

The fourth beast is like a flying eagle, Exodus 19:4 God declares He carried them on eagles wings and brought them unto myself.

If you’d like I can go into further detail on how I view the likeness of each beast and its relationship to the seal that it opens.

Sure, I'm always open to ideas with a basis in Scripture. I think you're right to point out the relationship these angels had to the opening of the book. I was focusing on how they brought glory to God by furthering the advance of the Gospel mission.

But in showing up in the opening of the 1st 4 seals, they facilitate the basic activities of the book of the Last Days, presenting a series of apparent judgments. And angels are known for passing judgment.

I don't know that my hypothetical "progressive" view of these angels will fit into a progressive idea of the 1st 4 Seals? But I do think it's possible.

The white horse of conquest would fit Christianity embedded in the conquering Roman Empire in the 1st 500 years. The red horse of imperial expansion would certainly fit the Holy Roman Empire in the next 500 years. The black horse of famine would fit the Catholic era and plagues of that time. The pale horse of death and pestilence might also fit the Evangelical Era in which great wars among nations were fought.

The last 3 Seals, martyrdom, apocalypse, and Christ's Coming would follow the Evangelical Era, as the time in which Antichrist's Kingdom arises. That's where the world seems to be heading today?

 

[RandyPNW]

The 4 Living Creatures.

Before the throne, in the midst, we are shown what seem to be `living creatures.` These are representations of the Lord`s ministries as to how He will bring restoration.


`Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal.

And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne,

were four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.



The first living creature was like a lion,

the second living creature like a calf,

the third living creature had a face like a man,

and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.`

(Rev. 4: 6 & 7)





The 4 living creatures are Christ`s Spirit of life, shown separately as 4 but in reality blended majestically into one Royal Divine Person, the Lord Jesus Christ.



Christ the King – (Lion)

Christ the Sacrifice (Heir) – (Calf)

Christ the Mediator – (Man)

Christ the Creator – (Eagle)





For Christ to fulfill God`s plan, His covenant to man, He needs to function in each area.



Christ is given the ultimate authority to rule, (Lion)

Christ humbled Himself to be the ultimate sacrifice, (Calf).

Christ is both God & man to be the Mediator of both, (Man).

Christ has ultimate power to create all things new, (Eagle).

Yes, I think all of the good angels represented Christ in some way in the book of Revelation. But to me, they are still just angels, doing the work for Christ.

In the garden of Eden they were stationed at the door to the garden to keep fallen Man out. And so they seem to oversee divine judgment, to ensure God's holiness is maintained in all matters, in Eternal Judgment and in Redemption.

And since angels were there in the beginning they will also be there at the end, carrying out final judgments in preparation for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. So these angels carry out tasks, and don't just resemble Christ for their artistic value. Rather, they are bringing conquest, unrest, famine, and death. These are characteristics of the present NT age, even as the Gospel ministry is busy carrying out God's plan of redemption in the world.

After the time of Christ, Kingdom authority, initially given to Israel, was given to the Roman Empire, which was Christianized under Constantine and Theodosius. But in the process, the Empire expanded and conquered, allowing the Church a home to be born into and grow out of. This was a period of Roman conquest, as well as barbarian conquest. It opened up a place for future Christian expansion.

In the period following the early Roman period came a time of Christian expansion into Europe, accompanied by a bloody period in which barbarian invasions continued and the Moslems arose. This is also where the Holy Roman Empire arose and put a halt to Moslem advances into Europe.

In the period following the rise of the Holy Roman Empire in the West, Catholicism reached its peak, placing the nation under a degree of control by the Pope. A lot of corruption evolved, with Crusades, plagues, and infighting among Christian nations. In the East the Byzantine Empire continued its rule. Christian rule was established in Europe, East and West.

Finally, there has been the Evangelical stage which has been a revolutionary period, with massive deaths due to wars, etc. These 4 historical Christian stages of Gospel growth can be made to fit the 4 Living Creatures. But I suppose I could fit symbols any way I want with enough imagination?

 

[grafted branch]

That would be good to hear.

Sure, I'm always open to ideas with a basis in Scripture.

Ok, I’m preterist so I know we are not going to agree on when the seals are opened but if we put that difference aside maybe we can agree on some of the finer points.

I’ll start off with something I think we will all agree on, the 4 beasts are full of eyes and in the midst of the throne and round about the throne (Revelation 4:6). 2 Chronicles 16:9 states the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth. Based on these two verses it follows that the 4 beasts have the ability to walk to and fro on the earth due to their eyes.

In Zechariah 6:1-7 there are 4 chariots with different colored horses. The question is asked what are these. The answer in verse 5 is the 4 spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. In verse 7 they walk to and fro through the earth. In Zechariah 1:8-11 there is a man riding a red horse and behind him are red, speckled, and white horses. They are said to be those whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

In Revelation 5:8 the 4 beasts fall down and worship the Lamb. This indicates that they are not Christ himself but there would seem to be a connection to Christ based on the four faces of the beasts which leads to the idea of them going to and fro on earth while Jesus was physically on earth.



1st seal: Revelation 6:1-2



The first beast which is like a lion says come and see after the Lamb opens the seal. The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David (Revelation 5:6), I believe is referring to the linage of Christ and so I place this event at His birth.

The bow the rider on the white horse has would then be a rainbow similar to Ezekiel 1:28. This bow or appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord is seen at the time of Christ’s birth in Luke2:9 when the glory of the Lord shone round about the shepherds in the field. In Luke 1:32 the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. This is the crown given him. The color white is associated with purity, our sins being removed or covered. Believers are given white robes and shall be whiter than snow.





2nd seal: Revelation 6:3-4



The second beast is like a calf and the rider on the red horse is given power to take peace from the earth, that they should kill one another, and is given a great sword.

I already showed in the previous post that I believe the red heifer is a type of Christ, which I think is why this horse is colored red.

In Luke 12:51-53 Jesus says Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. Matthew 10:34 Jesus came not to send peace but a sword.

Peace had to be taken so they would kill one another, because despite the law forbidding the taking of the life of an innocent man they would have to commit this very act.



3rd seal: Revelation 6:5-6



The third beast had a face like a man and the rider on the black horse has a pair of balances.


I don’t think this seal has anything to do with famine, I’ll make a separate post to specifically address the problems with associating this with famine.


When the statement “a measure of wheat for a penny and 3 measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine” is heard, it is the wheat and barley that are put on the balance and determined to have a cost of 1 penny.

The wheat can certainly be viewed as believers as in Matthew 13:30 at the time of harvest the wheat is gathered into his barn but the tares are burned. In Acts 20:28 it states feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood. Since believers are purchased they will not have to bear that cost.

The spiritual meaning of barley, I believe, is sin and specifically sin that is remembered before God. In Numbers 5:15, concerning a jealous husband, it states “then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance”. The offering of barley meal brings into remembrance iniquity.

In Hebrews 1:9 Christ is anointed by God with the oil of gladness. In Acts10:38God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power. Oil can certainly be synonymous with the Holy Spirit.

In Revelation 14:10 those who worship the beast will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.


Jesus prays in Luke 22:42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. We know from Isaiah 53:5 that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. We also know that after he was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon him (Matthew 3:16). When Jesus cried out my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me; the Holy Spirit is no longer with him at that time. The Holy Spirit is not hurt or wounded with Jesus. The cup or price that must be paid for the wheat is asked to be removed. I see the answer to Jesus’s prayer in Luke 22:42 as being the voice that is heard in Revelation 6:6, which would be that he must die alone, to purchase the wheat, without the Holy Spirt (oil not being hurt) and the wrath of God must still take place (wine not being hurt) on the barley.

The horse is colored black which represents the sin that Christ became for us.





4th seal: Revelation 6:7-8



The fourth beast was like a flying eagle and the rider on the green horse has the name Death and Hell followed with him.



In 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ became sin for us and in Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death where is thy sting? O grave (hell Strong’s #86), where is thy victory? ”. Hell follows with death in that they are both conquered or overcome by Christ.


And power was given them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with the sword, hunger, death, and the beasts of the earth.


In Matthew 10:28 we are told to not fear them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. Believers certainly aren’t the ones doing the killing, and unbelievers can only commit physical killing. This statement then has to be referring to the physical acts that unbelievers do and they have been doing them ever since Cain killed Able. Because the wheat or believers are 1 part and the barley or unsaved of the world are 3 parts, it is the world that continues to be able to physically kill the believers or 4th part despite Christ becoming death for us and overcoming it. I think this statement is simply reiterating the fact that physical acts against believers will continue until the end. When the next seal is opened those who were killed are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



In Exodus 19:3-4 the children of Israel are told the Lord bare them on eagles wings when they left the bondage of Egypt. In Isaiah 40:31 they that wait upon the Lord shall mount up with wings as eagles. The color of the horse is green (Strong’s #5515). In Jeremiah 17:7-8 the man that trusteth in the Lord and whose hope the Lord is shall be as a tree … with green leaves. Because Christ conquers death believers are carried on eagles wings and become green as a trees leaves with life.

 

[grafted branch]

The black horse of famine would fit the Catholic era and plagues of that time.

The problems with a third seal famine in Revelation 6:5-6.

Since only 4 types of food are mentioned I’m not going to speculate here on what happens to other types of food; it is likely that if wine and olive oil are available then grapes, raisins, and olives would also be available, but I will only include the foods that are specifically mentioned. Also we only know the cost of wheat and barley; if famine is assumed then we also have to assume that oil and wine are readily available for a nominal amount since they are not hurt.



First off, some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.



Nutritional value of wheat

Calories 340
Fat 2.5
Protein 13.2
Carbohydrate 72
Sugar .4





Nutritional value of barley

Calories 354
Fat 2.3
Protein 12.48
Carbohydrate 73.4
Sugar .82



Nutritional value of olive oil

Calories 881.5
Fat 103.7
Protein 0
Carbohydrate 0
Sugar 0



Nutritional value of grape juice

Calories 60
Fat .13
Protein .37
Carbohydrate 14.77
Sugar 14.2





Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women, children and inactive males.

Calories 2700 (easily obtained from olive oil)

Fat 88 (easily obtained from olive oil)

Protein 63 (would require 4.7 gallons of grape juice)

Carbohydrate 410 (would require less than 1 gallon of grape juice)

Sugar 37.5 (easily obtained from grape juice)



I did a search for “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.



In vitamins Barley=27 Wheat=25.

In minerals Barley=52 Wheat=67.

In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.

In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.

In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.



According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give a little over the amount of calories needed, also an excess amount of minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar.



My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.



Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for most people to drink nearly 5 gallons of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).



If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.



If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.



The penny being a day’s wages is often referenced using Matthew 20:1-16which is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. The problem with some commentaries is that they assume everyone’s wage is a penny. It certainly was true in the parable that all who worked in the vineyard received a penny; but during the first century there were carpenters, scribes, physicians, and many more professions. It’s still the same today; someone who picks fruit is considered a laborer and makes some of the lowest wages.



Keeping in mind Matthew 26:11, where Jesus said for ye have the poor always with you, I can’t see the 3rd seal being a famine. Only a limited in scope famine (possibly a wheat shortage) at best can be assumed, and even that is very questionable. My conclusion is if the 3rd seal is interpreted as literal food being priced then it would appear that it’s related only to the poor and not famine or scarcity.

 

[RandyPNW]

The problems with a third seal famine in Revelation 6:5-6.

Since only 4 types of food are mentioned I’m not going to speculate here on what happens to other types of food; it is likely that if wine and olive oil are available then grapes, raisins, and olives would also be available, but I will only include the foods that are specifically mentioned. Also we only know the cost of wheat and barley; if famine is assumed then we also have to assume that oil and wine are readily available for a nominal amount since they are not hurt.



First off, some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.



Nutritional value of wheat

Calories 340
Fat 2.5
Protein 13.2
Carbohydrate 72
Sugar .4





Nutritional value of barley

Calories 354
Fat 2.3
Protein 12.48
Carbohydrate 73.4
Sugar .82



Nutritional value of olive oil

Calories 881.5
Fat 103.7
Protein 0
Carbohydrate 0
Sugar 0



Nutritional value of grape juice

Calories 60
Fat .13
Protein .37
Carbohydrate 14.77
Sugar 14.2





Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women, children and inactive males.

Calories 2700 (easily obtained from olive oil)

Fat 88 (easily obtained from olive oil)

Protein 63 (would require 4.7 gallons of grape juice)

Carbohydrate 410 (would require less than 1 gallon of grape juice)

Sugar 37.5 (easily obtained from grape juice)



I did a search for “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.



In vitamins Barley=27 Wheat=25.

In minerals Barley=52 Wheat=67.

In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.

In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.

In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.



According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give a little over the amount of calories needed, also an excess amount of minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar.



My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.



Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for most people to drink nearly 5 gallons of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).



If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.



If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.



The penny being a day’s wages is often referenced using Matthew 20:1-16which is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. The problem with some commentaries is that they assume everyone’s wage is a penny. It certainly was true in the parable that all who worked in the vineyard received a penny; but during the first century there were carpenters, scribes, physicians, and many more professions. It’s still the same today; someone who picks fruit is considered a laborer and makes some of the lowest wages.



Keeping in mind Matthew 26:11, where Jesus said for ye have the poor always with you, I can’t see the 3rd seal being a famine. Only a limited in scope famine (possibly a wheat shortage) at best can be assumed, and even that is very questionable. My conclusion is if the 3rd seal is interpreted as literal food being priced then it would appear that it’s related only to the poor and not famine or scarcity.

Sounds reasonable to me. The poor and the laboring class are always the ones to get hit the worst. And that is why revolutionary periods begin by reference to the cause of the poor, labor, and the people, though organized by elitists who would use them for their own selfish purposes.

This would be, for me, the 3rd period in NT history leading up to the Age of Antichristianity, the period roughly 1000-1500 AD, with the corresponding "Living Creature" having the face of a "Man."

His judgment, if I was to take your position, would mean the era is characterized by economic restrictions afflicting the poor and the labor class. Clearly, this could be true of the late Middle Ages, when feudalism still kept life centered on agriculture, and less on capitalized business ventures. Without a Middle Class, most people would number among the poor laborers, though this has been true from time immemorial.

 

[grafted branch]

Sounds reasonable to me. The poor and the laboring class are always the ones to get hit the worst. And that is why revolutionary periods begin by reference to the cause of the poor, labor, and the people, though organized by elitists who would use them for their own selfish purposes.

This would be, for me, the 3rd period in NT history leading up to the Age of Antichristianity, the period roughly 1000-1500 AD, with the corresponding "Living Creature" having the face of a "Man."

His judgment, if I was to take your position, would mean the era is characterized by economic restrictions afflicting the poor and the labor class. Clearly, this could be true of the late Middle Ages, when feudalism still kept life centered on agriculture, and less on capitalized business ventures. Without a Middle Class, most people would number among the poor laborers, though this has been true from time immemorial.

Yes, Mark 14:7 says For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

 

[Marilyn C]

In Revelation 5:8 the 4 beasts fall down and worship the Lamb. This indicates that they are not Christ himself but there would seem to be a connection to Christ based on the four faces of the beasts which leads to the idea of them going to and fro on earth while Jesus was physically on earth.

Just a point here. I take it that the Lord`s ministries, (represented by the 4 creatures) honour the Lord Himself in all that He does. Thus, a picture of them bowing down. The Lord`s ministries are not self-serving, if you know what I mean.

 

[Marilyn C]

In Zechariah 6:1-7 there are 4 chariots with different colored horses. The question is asked what are these. The answer in verse 5 is the 4 spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. In verse 7 they walk to and fro through the earth. In Zechariah 1:8-11 there is a man riding a red horse and behind him are red, speckled, and white horses. They are said to be those whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Glad you brought up those scriptures as they are relevant, however, you have not gone any further with them.

 

[Marilyn C]

1st seal: Revelation 6:1-2


The first beast which is like a lion says come and see after the Lamb opens the seal. The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David (Revelation 5:6), I believe is referring to the linage of Christ and so I place this event at His birth.

The bow the rider on the white horse has would then be a rainbow similar to Ezekiel 1:28. This bow or appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord is seen at the time of Christ’s birth in Luke2:9 when the glory of the Lord shone round about the shepherds in the field. In Luke 1:32 the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. This is the crown given him. The color white is associated with purity, our sins being removed or covered. Believers are given white robes and shall be whiter than snow.

We see that the horsemen are revealed after the scroll has been given by the Father, to the Lord to open.

The first man is like a lion, (aggressive) whereas the Lord`s title is (as you said) the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. There is no mention of that title there. Then it was given some power to go forth conquering and to conquer.

This is one of the great powers that the 4 spirits of heaven, (in Zech. 6) are sent out to bring judgment, upon. (chariots & bronze mountains).

 

[Marilyn C]

2nd seal: Revelation 6:3-4



The second beast is like a calf and the rider on the red horse is given power to take peace from the earth, that they should kill one another, and is given a great sword.

I already showed in the previous post that I believe the red heifer is a type of Christ, which I think is why this horse is colored red.

In Luke 12:51-53 Jesus says Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. Matthew 10:34 Jesus came not to send peace but a sword.

Peace had to be taken so they would kill one another, because despite the law forbidding the taking of the life of an innocent man they would have to commit this very act.

I agree that this great power sheds much blood. And it is only the blood of Jesus that can bring forgiveness.

 

[Marilyn C]

3rd seal: Revelation 6:5-6


The third beast had a face like a man and the rider on the black horse has a pair of balances.

I don’t think this seal has anything to do with famine, I’ll make a separate post to specifically address the problems with associating this with famine.

When the statement “a measure of wheat for a penny and 3 measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine” is heard, it is the wheat and barley that are put on the balance and determined to have a cost of 1 penny.

The wheat can certainly be viewed as believers as in Matthew 13:30 at the time of harvest the wheat is gathered into his barn but the tares are burned. In Acts 20:28 it states feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood. Since believers are purchased they will not have to bear that cost.

The spiritual meaning of barley, I believe, is sin and specifically sin that is remembered before God. In Numbers 5:15, concerning a jealous husband, it states “then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance”. The offering of barley meal brings into remembrance iniquity.

In Hebrews 1:9 Christ is anointed by God with the oil of gladness. In Acts10:38God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power. Oil can certainly be synonymous with the Holy Spirit.

In Revelation 14:10 those who worship the beast will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.


Jesus prays in Luke 22:42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. We know from Isaiah 53:5 that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. We also know that after he was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon him (Matthew 3:16). When Jesus cried out my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me; the Holy Spirit is no longer with him at that time. The Holy Spirit is not hurt or wounded with Jesus. The cup or price that must be paid for the wheat is asked to be removed. I see the answer to Jesus’s prayer in Luke 22:42 as being the voice that is heard in Revelation 6:6, which would be that he must die alone, to purchase the wheat, without the Holy Spirt (oil not being hurt) and the wrath of God must still take place (wine not being hurt) on the barley.

The horse is colored black which represents the sin that Christ became for us.

The 3rd great power brings great hardship - inflation leading to high costs and inability for even a day`s pay to buy enough food.

 

[Marilyn C]

4th seal: Revelation 6:7-8

The fourth beast was like a flying eagle and the rider on the green horse has the name Death and Hell followed with him.


In 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ became sin for us and in Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death where is thy sting? O grave (hell Strong’s #86), where is thy victory? ”. Hell follows with death in that they are both conquered or overcome by Christ.

And power was given them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with the sword, hunger, death, and the beasts of the earth.

In Matthew 10:28 we are told to not fear them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. Believers certainly aren’t the ones doing the killing, and unbelievers can only commit physical killing. This statement then has to be referring to the physical acts that unbelievers do and they have been doing them ever since Cain killed Able. Because the wheat or believers are 1 part and the barley or unsaved of the world are 3 parts, it is the world that continues to be able to physically kill the believers or 4th part despite Christ becoming death for us and overcoming it. I think this statement is simply reiterating the fact that physical acts against believers will continue until the end. When the next seal is opened those who were killed are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


In Exodus 19:3-4 the children of Israel are told the Lord bare them on eagles wings when they left the bondage of Egypt. In Isaiah 40:31 they that wait upon the Lord shall mount up with wings as eagles. The color of the horse is green (Strong’s #5515). In Jeremiah 17:7-8 the man that trusteth in the Lord and whose hope the Lord is shall be as a tree … with green leaves. Because Christ conquers death believers are carried on eagles wings and become green as a trees leaves with life.

The 4th Great Power - (dun-coloured, pale, greenish), is given power over a fourth of the earth to kill with a sword, with hunger, with death, (plagues), and by the beasts of the earth.

And as you said - praise the Lord, He has conquered death and hell.

 

[Marilyn C]

This is my belief of who the 4 horsemen, the great powers are.

 

[grafted branch]

This is my belief of who the 4 horsemen, the great powers are.

View attachment 338943

Thanks for sharing your view. I’m curious where you stand on a few things.

In Revelation 6:4 power is given … that they should kill on another.

In Revelation 6:8 power is given unto them over the fourth part of the earth to kill …

In Revelation 6:11 they are told to rest until their fellow servants are killed as they were should be fulfilled.

Do you see “killed as they were” including the second seal where people kill one another or do you see “killed as they were” referring only to how those are killed during the fourth seal where the 3/4 kill the 1/4?

Also do you see the statement in Revelation 6:11 “killed as they were should be fulfilled” referring to Daniel 9:27 being fulfilled? Or some other scripture fulfilled?

 

[Marilyn C]

`I will call for a sword Thanks for sharing your view. I’m curious where you stand on a few things.

In Revelation 6:4 power is given … that they should kill on another.

In Revelation 6:8 power is given unto them over the fourth part of the earth to kill …

In Revelation 6:11 they are told to rest until their fellow servants are killed as they were should be fulfilled.

Do you see “killed as they were” including the second seal where people kill one another or do you see “killed as they were” referring only to how those are killed during the fourth seal where the 3/4 kill the 1/4?

Also do you see the statement in Revelation 6:11 “killed as they were should be fulfilled” referring to Daniel 9:27 being fulfilled? Or some other scripture fulfilled?

I appreciate your polite reply. Good questions.

1. Rev. 6: 4 (hadn`t taken note of that before, thanks). Now as I see that great power as the Russian Federation it could be related to -

`I will call for a sword against Gog, (northern power, v. 15) throughout all My mountains, " says the Lord God, "Every man`s sword will be against his brother." (Ez. 38: 21) And that is at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. (Joel 2: 1)

2. Rev. 6: 9 - 11 refers to the martyrs as they are under the altar, signifying their trusting God for His protection and vengeance upon those who killed them. They were killed for their trust in God and that would be by the A/C `s army, the 4th great power. (Islam)

And yes, in the second part of the nearly 7 year tribulation that is where I see the martyrs killed for their faith in God. It is only in the second part of the trib. that the A/C comes to power and seeks to kill all who stand against him.