Liturgical Development

[gordonhooker]

My experience of talking about liturgy is exclusively from my 12 or so years at CF. I have learnt a lot and am grateful to all the members of STR who have taught me.

What I find difficult is that Anglo-Catholic members of STR are often dissatisfied with authorised liturgy. But I also found that Anglo-Catholic members also take great pride in being obedient to their bishops. This confuses me. I am a scientist and like things to be orderly.

How can you be obedient to the church hierarchy, yet be dissatisfied,to the point of seeking alternatives, to what that hierarchy has authorised and blessed?

It’s an honest question.

I am AngloCatholic and very happy with authorised liturgy. So which Anglo Catholic members are you referring to.

 

[Albion]

I cannot speak for Naomi nor would I attempt that, but I do feel that there is a difference between traditional Anglo-Catholicism and something closer to Anglo-Papalism or Anglo-Romanism that seems to be in the ascendency among people who describe themselves as Anglo-Catholics. Not content with being Anglicans who emphasize the historic, catholic side of the faith, they want to be seen as "just as Catholic as the Catholics except that we're English" and to that end adopt more and more of the Roman Catholic look, terminology, devotionals, and so on. They are now far removed from what the Oxford Movement was about. Incidentally, there are Lutherans who do much the same thing, calling themselves, with all seriousness, "Lutheran Catholics."

 

[Paidiske]

Sure, I was at college with some guys who were into lace cottas and rosaries and such. I think they would actually have rather been Roman but had a vocation and wanted to marry (or - frankly - at least have sex), so settled for being as Catholic as they could get away with in Anglicanism. It never struck me as a compromise which was likely to be satisfying in the long term...

 

[Albion]

Sure, I was at college with some guys who were into lace cottas and rosaries and such. I think they would actually have rather been Roman but had a vocation and wanted to marry (or - frankly - at least have sex), so settled for being as Catholic as they could get away with in Anglicanism. It never struck me as a compromise which was likely to be satisfying in the long term...

Some of those folks whom I have known personally want to be thought of as being 'as Catholic as the Catholics' EXCEPT, you understand, when it comes to accepting the discipline of the Roman Catholic Church! That's where their theological scruples suddenly object.

 

[Shane R]

When the Ordinariates came along those guys thought it was going to be the greatest thing ever. They could finally be truly Catholic and still live as they had been. Except, they were all laicized upon entry into the Catholic church and they were not all approved for subsequent ordination. There was one particular individual here in the States who was daft enough to think he would be given a Cardinalate.

My experience with those guys is they are all on the fringe of whatever church they are in. I'm waiting to hear of one of them petitioning to join the SSPX and revive Sarum use.

 

[Paidiske]

Most of them didn't even get that far here. When the ordinariate was first announced I was still in college; there was a buzz of excitement; in the ordinariate ex-Anglicans would be allowed to maintain their own seminaries, discipline, and continue to marry. It was all the dreams of these guys, coming true.

Except of course it turned out to be a massive bait and switch. Most of what was talked about early never eventuated. The ordinariate doesn't have its own seminaries, it lives by Roman rules, and ordinariate priests can't marry after ordination. I'm given to understand from a colleague of mine who was the Archbishop of Canterbury's representative in Rome, that there are no plans for the ordinariate to continue beyond this one generation.

So the lace-cotta-and-rosary brigade stayed. And you know, I'm even prepared to say that's not all entirely bad; but I do wish that they'd make their peace with the fact that staying means working with women as colleagues. Sometimes the hostility is palpable...

 

[Naomi4Christ]

The ordinariate here fizzled out pretty much.

The practicalities of providing a decent salary, and housing for a wife and children, as well as a decent pension made this impossible to all but the independently wealthy.

 

[JamieRedheadUK]

I believe one of our Fathers uses a new Catholic daily missal

 

[JamieRedheadUK]

Although I would say there are good historical reasons for ango-catholics to exist in the Church of England; since the split was political not theological etc and certain people within the CofE maybe waiting for us cross the Tibue en masse so to speak. American and Australian Anglo Catholics I see less justification for.

 

[Paidiske]

It's historical, mostly. Whichever missionary society sent people out to the colonies, or what seminary the first bishop went to, seems to have set the tone in different parts of Australia. It's why Sydney is... well... Sydney and most of the rest of Australia's quite different.