Little research here, need help

[visionary]

Can anyone provide an original source text that proves the claim that Isaiah 53 used to be read as part of the fixed Haftarah readings and was later removed?

 

[AbbaLove]

Don't doubt that once (BCE) Isaiah 53 was 'noted' Hebrew text ... even though a MYSTERY to many.

Do you think Isaiah or King David understood Isaiah 53:1-12 was referring to HaMashiach as the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate ? Even His mother Mary and His brothers were perplexed.

 

[AbbaLove]

The Haftorah and Isaiah 53 - Judaism's Answer
www.judaismsanswer.com/haftorah.htm
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"There appears to be support for the view of the Rabbis, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that Isaiah 53 does not relate to any consolations for the Jewish People. This is from the documents 4Q176, which is referred to as 4QTanhumin [5]. Scholars see this fragment as a collection of verses consoling Israel. What is interesting is to notice what passages from Isaiah are included and the order of these passages.

1. Isaiah 40:1-5, Isaiah 41:8-9, Isaiah 49:7, 13-17 [6]
2. Isaiah 43:1-2 [7]
3. Isaiah 43:4-6 [8]
4. Isaiah 51:22-23 [9]
5. Isaiah 52:1-3, 54:4-10 [10]

Of the first five of the Haftorahs of consolation, all are represented here. And interestingly, there is the same skip of Isaiah 53 in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which predate Christianity!! It is not logical to claim that the compilers of the Dead Sea Scrolls were part of the ‘Rabbinic Conspiracy.’ "​

What IF the Dead Sea Scrolls were copied/written sometime between 30 and 70 AD ?

The two following comments are from the following Haaretz Haftarah article www.haaretz.com/1.4930887?v=1627864521519
​

G Goldberg
02.01.2018
Does God Have Alzheimer's?
Either he dosen't give two hoots about planet earth or he has forgotten about us, but either way, we should put aside our dinosaur religions and come up with a philosophy for the 21st century, that will stop the killing and start us listening to each other!
Refreshing
02.01.2018
Understandably true
I'm also informed (hopefully correctly) that Isaiah 53 does not appear in these readings - is that correct? The reason for these exclusion must be the enmity that arose between the Jews of that day who believed the Messiah was Y'Shua (Jesus) and those who refused to believe. The early "church" was almost entirely consisting of Jewish people and after the destruction of the temple by the Romans there arose the rabbinic Judaism traditions which excluded all references to Y'Shua being the long awaited Messiah, and they even (falsely) declared their own messiah which led to the destruction of Jerusalem. It is encouraging to see so many Jewish people today realizing the mistakes of their forefathers and embracing the Risen Messiah. Hallelu-YAH​

​

 

[Humble Penny]

The Haftorah and Isaiah 53 - Judaism's Answer
www.judaismsanswer.com/haftorah.htm
​

"There appears to be support for the view of the Rabbis, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that Isaiah 53 does not relate to any consolations for the Jewish People. This is from the documents 4Q176, which is referred to as 4QTanhumin [5]. Scholars see this fragment as a collection of verses consoling Israel. What is interesting is to notice what passages from Isaiah are included and the order of these passages.

1. Isaiah 40:1-5, Isaiah 41:8-9, Isaiah 49:7, 13-17 [6]
2. Isaiah 43:1-2 [7]
3. Isaiah 43:4-6 [8]
4. Isaiah 51:22-23 [9]
5. Isaiah 52:1-3, 54:4-10 [10]

Of the first five of the Haftorahs of consolation, all are represented here. And interestingly, there is the same skip of Isaiah 53 in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which predate Christianity!! It is not logical to claim that the compilers of the Dead Sea Scrolls were part of the ‘Rabbinic Conspiracy.’ "​

What IF the Dead Sea Scrolls were copied/written sometime between 30 and 70 AD ?

The two following comments are from the following Haaretz Haftarah article www.haaretz.com/1.4930887?v=1627864521519
​

G Goldberg
02.01.2018
Does God Have Alzheimer's?
Either he dosen't give two hoots about planet earth or he has forgotten about us, but either way, we should put aside our dinosaur religions and come up with a philosophy for the 21st century, that will stop the killing and start us listening to each other!
Refreshing
02.01.2018
Understandably true
I'm also informed (hopefully correctly) that Isaiah 53 does not appear in these readings - is that correct? The reason for these exclusion must be the enmity that arose between the Jews of that day who believed the Messiah was Y'Shua (Jesus) and those who refused to believe. The early "church" was almost entirely consisting of Jewish people and after the destruction of the temple by the Romans there arose the rabbinic Judaism traditions which excluded all references to Y'Shua being the long awaited Messiah, and they even (falsely) declared their own messiah which led to the destruction of Jerusalem. It is encouraging to see so many Jewish people today realizing the mistakes of their forefathers and embracing the Risen Messiah. Hallelu-YAH​

​

Yes your findings would line up with what we know historically about rabbinic Judaism being at odds with Christ Yeshua. For the time period you provide is when the rabbis start gaining control.over the people as after 70 AD Titus already destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem so, the rabbis would be able to spread their propaganda and seem like true nationalists and adherents to the Law of Moses.

 

[AbbaLove]

What IF the Dead Sea Scrolls were copied/written sometime between 30 and 70 AD ?

Yes your findings would line up with what we know historically about rabbinic Judaism being at odds with Christ Yeshua. For the time period you provide is when the rabbis start gaining control.over the people as after 70 AD Titus already destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem so, the rabbis would be able to spread their propaganda and seem like true nationalists and adherents to the Law of Moses.

Let's not overlook the possibility that the Pharisees and Sadducees may have instituted the change in the Haftarah before 70 AD or possibly even years before 30 AD.

Did the Zealots or whatever sect(s) that were party to the Dead Sea Scrolls also suffer like Saul of short-sightedness? One possible scenario is that any verses from Isaiah 53 were edited out of the Haftarah sometime between 30-70 AD when The Great Isaiah Scroll was placed in Qumran Cave 1 ...

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Another scenario is that Isaiah 53 was a 'mystery' to the Zealouts as well as the Sadducees and Pharisees who were blind guides to Israel--a mystery in itself. Because of this blindness (as was Saul of Tarsus) it's possible Isaiah 53 had been removed years before Yeshua was born or was never included in the Haftarah--being one of several Mysteries of GOD.

 

[Humble Penny]

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Let's not overlook the possibility that the Pharisees and Sadducees may have instituted the change in the Haftarah before 70 AD or possibly even years before 30 AD.

Did the Zealots or whatever sect(s) that were party to the Dead Sea Scrolls also suffer like Saul of short-sightedness? One possible scenario is that any verses from Isaiah 53 were edited out of the Haftarah sometime between 30-70 AD when The Great Isaiah Scroll was placed in Qumran Cave 1 ...

​

Another scenario is that Isaiah 53 was a 'mystery' to the Zealouts as well as the Sadducees and Pharisees who were blind guides to Israel--a mystery in itself. Because of this blindness (as was Saul of Tarsus) it's possible Isaiah 53 had been removed years before Yeshua was born or was never included in the Haftarah--being one of several Mysteries of GOD.

Well Yeshua also did call His opponents blind guides in reference to the blind leading the blind. And He did quote a passage in Isaiah which said that:

"Seeing with their eyes they shall not see, and hearing with their ears they shall not hear. If they could see with their eyes and hear with their ears then I would come and heal them."

Otherwise yes I agree with your findings that the Pharisees definitely began they're schemes long before 70 AD. This is evidenced in the Gospels and aligns quite well with the words of Josephus who speaks of, and descends from them; and their ancestry can be traced back to the Hasmonean dynasty, so it would seem that they were the new generation which lost sight completely of what Judah Maccabee and his brothers fought for.

 

[AbbaLove]

Because of this blindness (as was Saul of Tarsus) it's possible Isaiah 53 had been removed years before Yeshua was born or was never included in the Haftarah--being one of several Mysteries of GOD.

The member of this MJ forum that was most knowledgeable of orthodox Judaism whether in NY city or Jerusalem as well as ancient and classic Hebrew language and Hebrew/Jewish traditions is yonah (a frequent contributor from May 9, 2015 - June 18,2016) ...

yonah_mishael
הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
(Faith Icon Judaism)
​

Very well-rounded having rubbed shoulders with secular and religious Jews in NY and Israel, and aware of the growing Messianic congregations in Israel. This in part was likely why he was attracted to this Messanic Judaism forum. His understanding/explanation of Judaism's interpretation of Isaiah 53 is not one person (Israel's HaMashiach), but rather Israel itself. This rationale is understandable since the dispersion (diaspora) of the Israelites and the shame upon Israel until recently (1948 to present).

Thus, it seems plausible that Isaiah 53 was never included in the Haftarah in AD/CE or even in BCE. The word "haftarah" in it's broadest sense should be understood to have always been integral to Hebrew religious tradition beginning with the Laws/Commands of Moshe and the annual Feasts of the LORD by the priests.

Isaiah 53 was not an easy pill for Israel to swallow. One of the Mysteries of GOD, not even privy to Israel's sages other than speculation as is the understanding by yonah_mishael

 

[GedaliahMaegil]

Can anyone provide an original source text that proves the claim that Isaiah 53 used to be read as part of the fixed Haftarah readings and was later removed?

It has been suggested that Yesha`yahu 53 was included in the Haftarah readings and later removed, which, by the way, is an accusation freely thrown into the air by non-Messianics in an antisemitic manner.

The only possible hint we have right now, by way of omission, is 4QTanhumim of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which does not list the passage in the liturgy. Is that conclusive? I don't know. The dating of the scrolls has been given as a block of about a century, straddling the 1st century BCE to the 1st century CE, long after the prophecy of Yesha`yahu was spoken or penned.

I guess the important question is: Is Yesha`yahu 53 important for Jews and gerim to understand? From my standpoint, the answer is "yes". Devarim 13 (#AnswersInTorah) involves a mitsvah that the claims of prophets are to be examined fully. The Talmud shows that the Rabbis were intimately familiar with the passage and considered it worthy of study (cf. Sanhedrin 98)

Indeed, even Rambam chimed in, saying:

"What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will hearken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."

“Whoever does not believe in him (Messiah), or does not await his coming, denies not only the other prophets but also the Torah and Moses, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming.”

 

[Torah Keeper]

The Jewish Ethiopian Eunuch asked whether Isaiah 53 was about Isaiah, or someone else. The eunuch was an upper class, well educated man, being familiar enough with Judaism to actually understand Hebrew, and go to Jerusalem for the Feasts, and likely descended from Solomon. And why was he studying this chapter in particular? Because even he realized Isaiah 53 was about Yeshua. He just needed Philip to confirm it.

As for the scheduled Haftarah readings, I am not convinced there was any schedule at all. I think they just read the Torah and Prophets straight through. The modern Haftarah cycles do not even read the entire Haftarah. Whole Books are ignored.