Literalism and Biblical Contradictions

[Vance]

Exactly, Potluck, so when people say we should accept YEC'ism because that is the "plain and simple" reading of the text of Genesis, you can see the problem. There *is* no plain and simple reading. It all requires interpretation and analysis.

And even those who think we should insist upon a literal reading of Genesis are often the same who insist we should read Song of Solomon *non-literally*, as an allegory for Christ and the Church. But the thought of reading Genesis allegorically or metaphorically is, for some reason, unthinkable. Very odd.

Holly, I agree, and sometimes the context is that it must be read non-literally. Personally, I believe in the inerrancy of the Holy Message of Scripture. This inerrancy and holiness is not in the least diminished if there happen to be contradictions in the text that can not be explained.

 

[PotLuck]

Study always means there will be effort involved. How much one gets out of research/study depends on the effort put into it. And the motivation is also a very important factor. This is not meant to be an offense. It's just the way it is in ANY subject of study.

 

[Vance]

Well, of course. Which means you agree that the "plain reading" may not always be the correct reading. If not, study would not be necessary. I am with you on this one.

 

[PotLuck]

For me it was finding a foundation through salvation.
I need a measuring stick to judge anything. I need a measuring stick to know what's moral or not. I need something solid to stand on before I can lift/handle something. Relying on "me", my opinion or even worse, my feelings has never served me very well. For me it was, "OK Lord. I'm wrong, you're right".

The TE will take things this way. The YEC will take things another. The way I see it neither is the judge. We'll all know the truth sooner or later.

Boy, I love these abbreviations. TE, YEC, OEC and my favorite... "Fundie", one I've seen around here somewhere. Sounds like a desert served with a happy-meal or something.

Aw never mind. I'm just getting silly.

 

[Vance]

I agree with you completely, Potluck. These are simply not salvation issues and should not be treated as if they are. Unfortunately, it is the YEC's who are insisting that this be preached as an integral and essential part of Christianity by saying that if you accept Scripture, you can not accept evolution or an old earth. They, not the TE's are creating this rift. And the purpose of Mr. Ross' comments, and for my posting it here, is to ask them to simply stop doing this.

If they want to read Genesis literally and believe in a young earth, go right ahead. But stop teaching our children that Christianity and evolution are "either/or" propositions. And stop presenting Christianity to the world with this same "either/or" concept. The OP points out how dangerous these positions are to the Gospel, while doing no positive work for the Gospel whatsoever.

 

[PotLuck]

Man, you're so passionate about this.
Oh well. As far as I'm concerned I'll continue to teach my grandchildren a literal view of the bible or anyone else I speak with. I was a staunch evolutionist 5 years ago. In an instant the belief was taken from me the very moment I was saved. I was not taught over time. I can not go back.

 

[Vance]

Potluck, I would suggest you read my post called "Removing the Stumbling Block" as well as "Let's All Remember the Lesson of Geocentrism".

 

[PotLuck]

Been there. Done that.
But it's difficult for a man with an opinion to argue with a man with an experience.

So far I've not come across anything from men that will make me repent again in the opposite direction. I simply don't believe the theory of evolution is true. So there goes about 45 years of following a belief down the proverial toilet in the blink of an eye.
Oh well, I'll get over it.
And no. I really don't wish to debate TEism and Creationism again. Been there. done that.
Sorry
I wish I could say what you want to hear but I can't. Nothing against you at all ok?

 

[Vance]

Then what is the appeal of this forum for you if you are not interested in the debate which is the *subject* of this forum? I am confused.

 

[PotLuck]

You know what? I really haven't a clue.
"But lord! I don't want to go to Ninevah!"
There seems to be times I'm not to do something, keep quiet and/or observe, and there's times I'm led to say something. And I gotta tell ya when I let my feeling speak that's when I get into trouble.

 

[gluadys]

Been there. Done that.
But it's difficult for a man with an opinion to argue with a man with an experience.

So far I've not come across anything from men that will make me repent again in the opposite direction. I simply don't believe the theory of evolution is true. So there goes about 45 years of following a belief down the proverial toilet in the blink of an eye.

Which raises questions in my mind. Why did you believe in evolution in the first place? What did you ever learn about evolution as science? Did you simply take it for granted because that seemed to be the most popular opinion?

Because I think a lot of people do. Science (or at least biology) is not their principle field of interest and they never really investigate the science to the point of understanding it well. So for them evolution is indeed a belief, not a form of knowledge.

I can certainly see that if someone relates to evolution as a belief, then it is easy to discard evolution when one adopts a different belief. Especially if one is told in no uncertain terms that the two beliefs are at odds with each other and one must commit to one or the other.

What I don't see is people who approach evolution as science rather than as faith, changing their mind about the science on the basis of their faith.

Btw, I am also speaking from experience, for my path on this question was the opposite of yours. I began in the creationist camp, but on learning what the scientific version of evolution was and why scientists supported it, I put creationism behind me.

But I never even thought of putting faith out of my life. I didn't know anything about theistic evolution then, had never heard the term. But I trusted from the beginning that all truth is God's truth, and if evolution (as it appeared) was true, then there must be a way to hold the truth of God's Word and the truth of evolution together. And everything I have learned since then, in both science and the study of scripture has confirmed that trust.

 

[PotLuck]

Heck, I love science. Always have, always will.

I was taught how to take a pool of data and picking out a small amount of just the right stuff I could make it say whatever I wanted. Like those lists you see every so often of comparisons between events that make them look supernatural or something. If I have 1000 pieces of data on each I should be able to find at least 50 common ones. Used it in manufacturing engineering for years to sway decision of the upper execs in my favor for expenditures of things I wanted to make my job easier.

Religion? For me it was for the weak, those that couldn't or wouldn't think for themselves. And I thought the same thing with scripture. Depended on how it was interpreted or the verses selected. I knew how to do that already.

At any rate, I found it takes a lot more faith to believe evolution AS FACT than the bible or more accurately to believe God. Many believe IN God but few BELIEVE God. But then, that could be another topic unto itself.

Gotta go. be back later.

God bless ya!

Rick W
Salt Lake City

 

[herev]

The TE will take things this way. The YEC will take things another. The way I see it neither is the judge. We'll all know the truth sooner or later.

 

[herev]

"But lord! I don't want to go to Ninevah!"

which puts you in good company--I'm with you--let's go find a baot

 

[gluadys]

Heck, I love science. Always have, always will.

I was taught how to take a pool of data and picking out a small amount of just the right stuff I could make it say whatever I wanted. Like those lists you see every so often of comparisons between events that make them look supernatural or something. If I have 1000 pieces of data on each I should be able to find at least 50 common ones. Used it in manufacturing engineering for years to sway decision of the upper execs in my favor for expenditures of things I wanted to make my job easier.

LOL. Love that!

So, basically your experience in engineering taught you that facts--especially statistical facts---are malleable, and you can get pretty much any result you want with them.

And you assumed the same was true in biology---especially in evolution, where one is dealing most of the time with population statistics, right?

Now, I know nothing about engineering, but it does seem to me that something in engineering must be fundamentally true.

Once, someone told me that the most important thing to remember in engineering is that you can't push on a rope. It is absolutely the only thing I have ever learned about it. Is that a fact? Or can you work around it by choosing your data?

So, I am still wondering if you ever looked into biology deeply enough to see if there were fundamentals that are not manipulable statistics. Because even with my limited understanding of biology, I just cannot see the facts saying anything other than that evolution happens.

 

[Doc Dilly]

'The TE will take things this way. The YEC will take things another. The way I see it neither is the judge. We'll all know the truth sooner or later...' by potluck
Hey cool, I said very nearly the same thing just yesterday on another thread. The obvious has been voiced a million times: TE's think creationists are crazy and vice versa. And we will find out who is 'right' sooner, I think, than later. So who says we can't find points of agreement?

 

[Vance]

I agree with this sentiment completely, TE's and YEC's should both let other Christians believe what like in this regard (even though we have forums such as these to debate the pros and cons of each approach).

Neither YEC's nor TE's should be teaching or preaching their interpretation is the only possible correct one, and especially should not be teaching or preaching that a failure to believe as they do regarding origins is a disbelief of Scripture.

Once we get to the point that people are not confronted with the idea that if they believe in the Scripture, they can not believe in evolution, and vice-versa, the entire issue will be almost irrelevant within Christianity and we can move on to Salvation issues.

 

[herev]

Man, I tell you, I walk away for 30 minutes and look, the voice of reason seems to be everywhere
Makes you want to reminisce about the good old days, doesn't it

 

[Doc Dilly]

Hey, just for fun, what's the best insult you ever heard thrown at TE's? I know, I know, from both sides 99 percent of them are just stupid and insipid...and the best that can been said sometimes is that one or two of them are 'cute.' As a card-carrying, fire-breathing, dangerous, creationist, my favorite is 'fundie!' Ha! Ha! That sounds so tribble-like, gosh, I read that and feel like Papa Smurf! Great one!

You miss the 'old days?' Okay, how's this: grrrr? Feel better?

Ah, brother's and sister's, just Praise Him

 

[herev]

Hey, just for fun, what's the best insult you ever heard thrown at TE's? I know, I know, from both sides 99 percent of them are just stupid and insipid...and the best that can been said sometimes is that one or two of them are 'cute.' As a card-carrying, fire-breathing, dangerous, creationist, my favorite is 'fundie!' Ha! Ha! That sounds so tribble-like, gosh, I read that and feel like Papa Smurf! Great one!

You miss the 'old days?' Okay, how's this: grrrr? Feel better?

Ah, brother's and sister's, just Praise Him

I feel lots more better now--I think I was having withdrawal symptoms

thanks so much---okay, back to the peace talks