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Normal was not the issue in question. You're saying these things are impossible. My question to you is how do you know that?
Semantics.
It's not semantics to ask why you believe what you believe. You're saying these things are impossible. Why do you believe that?
Because they are feats that human beings cannot do without divine assistance.
But, how do you know that?
@TLK Valentine , consider UFO sightings. I don't know how much you know about UFOs, but there is no question that there are many well-documented and unexplained sightings. The question is only "what is causing this UFO sighting?". Often these UFO sightings seem to defy physics.
The difference I see between UFO sightings and miracles (such as parting the Red Sea) is the apparent purpose. Moses (with God's help) parted the Red Sea to escape Pharaoh and to show that God was stronger than the false gods of the Egyptians.
With UFO sightings there often seems to be no obvious purpose.
[So it seems to me that an extraordinary event that serves God's purpose is a miracle. There are varying degrees of extraordinary. Maybe a spontaneous phone call from one friend to another friend at just the right time to avert a suicide might be called a miracle even though no physical laws were broken.
Another thing to consider is that some of the classic miracles like parting the Red Sea can be imagined to be in conformance with physics. In the 1800s there were lots of people with an equal devotion to science and a literal understanding of Biblical miracles who tried to reconcile them.
Take, for example, Moses at the Red Sea. Some Biblical scholars claim that this was actually at the "Sea of Reeds," the swampy marshland where the Suez Canal is now located. The idea is that Moses led the Israelites slowly and carefully through this swamp, but the pursuing Egyptian army, wearing full armor and riding iron chariots, got hopelessly bogged down. In short, a lucky break for the Israelites which grew more and more fantastic with each retelling.
On the other hand, if it happened as traditionally depicted, in all of Cecil B. DeMille's glory:
Then we've got a bona fide miracle.
My understanding is that the Hebrew could mean either "Sea of Reeds" or "Red Sea".I am aware of such reconciliation attempts. To the best of my knowledge, every such attempt at reconciliation with a literal understanding of Biblical miracles failed.
I mentioned the Red Sea earlier; I don't mind restating it:
Now, the "Sea of Reeds" version is plausible, and it would certainly reconcile our knowledge of physics, history, geography, etc., with the Biblical account... but it ain't "literal"; not by a long shot.
My understanding is that the Hebrew could mean either "Sea of Reeds" or "Red Sea".
There are lots of naturalistic explanations for miracles in the Bible. One example I recall from one of Bart Ehrman's books attempted to explain the story of Jesus walking on water. In this explanation, the wind from the storm slowly blew the boat carrying the disciples towards shore without their knowledge (because it was dark). They saw Jesus walking towards them along the beach and assumed he was walking on water. When Peter stepped from the boat he fell into shallow water, but Jesus pulled him back into the boat. ... It made me chuckle, but it's semi-plausible.
Because I understand the basics of the laws of physics, and, to the best of my knowledge, I'm not psychotic.
You're saying levitation is impossible because you've never seen it or experienced it (i.e. to the best of your knowledge). Not only that, but you go further and suggest that anyone who does say it is possible, or claims to have witnessed it, is psychotic.
I'm not sure if you really understand the connection you're making here, but it certainly does seem like you believe anyone who has experiences which are contrary to your own must be psychotic.
Your personal knowledge of reality has become the sole basis for what you understand to be possible or not possible; if you have not seen it, then it would be psychotic to believe it is possible.
Hmm....
I'm saying that my understanding of the laws of physics is such that a person cannot negate gravity solely through force of will,
I believe that anyone who believes that they are capable of unpowered flight should immediately seek medical and/or psychiatric attention
Have you seen it? Is that where you're going with this?
Hmm, indeed. You don't happen to own a Superman cape, do you?
You're the only one suggesting it must happen solely through force of will. A sincere person will be open to how such a thing may be possible through the laws of physics in a way which is not currently understood. You simply have a closed mind because it is convenient for it to be closed on this particular issue.
This is not about what people believe, but rather what is possible based on the laws of phsyics. You keep turning it into t a mental health issue, which strongly suggests a mental health issue on your own part; anyone who does not think the way you do must be crazy, right?
I've read eye-witness evidence of it.
This is evidence of a problem on your part; a resort to ridicule toward those who do not think the way you do.
The truth is not in you.
I actually take a small issue with this. Who says that "divine assistance" is the cause of such an event if it ever happens? It would certainly be supernatural of some kind, but I think people take for granted the logical leap they make from "such and such miracle occurred" to "there is a creator of the universe". If I were to grant that any given miraculous feat occurred, who's to say where the person who did it got his magic powers?Because they are feats that human beings cannot do without divine assistance.
I actually take a small issue with this. Who says that "divine assistance" is the cause of such an event if it ever happens? It would certainly be supernatural of some kind, but I think people take for granted the logical leap they make from "such and such miracle occurred" to "there is a creator of the universe". If I were to grant that any given miraculous feat occurred, who's to say where the person who did it got his magic powers?
Then fly. If you believe that the laws of physics can be so easily circumvented, it's time to put your money where your mouth is.
I'm not saying they are circumvented, but rather used in a way which we currently do not understand, not am I saying it is something which is easy, just as understanding natural or quantum phsyics is not easy, though neither does being difficult make such understanding impossible.
See the issue was never whether *I* can levitate, or whether I know how to levitate, but rather that levitation should not be considered impossible (as you've said it is) just because one does not know how to do it.
From what I've learned the bible is best interpreted by understanding the mindset of the cultures in which it was initially written.Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."
That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?
I think that depends. When the Red Sea was parted it depended on whether you were a fleeing Israelite or a pursuing Egyptian.And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?
Long ago we rebelled against God and were cursed with death. We were warned, but rebelled anyway. That's why we suffer and die. God doesn't owe us miracles.Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.
Consider:
Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"
- God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
- God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
- God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.
Thoughts?
Well, until someone figures out how to do it and is willing to share that knowledge, it's not possible.
From what I've learned the bible is best interpreted by understanding the mindset of the cultures in which it was initially written.
The mindsets of the authors and readers of the Old and New Testaments were much more attuned to the supernatural than our own. Miracles were indeed interpreted as actual events.
For example, the Jewish historian Josephus (writing in the 1st century) documented the history of the Jewish nation in his work "Antiquities of the Jews". Much of it comes from the Old Testament. He treats almost every event in it as historical (one exception is that he distances himself from the account of Jonah and the fish).
I think that depends. When the Red Sea was parted it depended on whether you were a fleeing Israelite or a pursuing Egyptian.
Long ago we rebelled against God and were cursed with death.
We were warned, but rebelled anyway.
That's why we suffer and die.
God doesn't owe us miracles.
What he did for us 2,000 years ago was more than a miracle. He sent his son to die for our sins and then raised him from the dead, proving that he can raise us from the dead, too.
He broke the curse and now we, by believing the gospel, can have eternal life once again.
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