Literal Interpretation of the Bible or Not?

[D.W.Washburn]

No, the passage does NOT say "homosexual behavior is the result of and "due penalty" for idolatry!

Well, yeah, actually it does. And it is there for everyone to read and see for themselves.

The early church interpreted αρσενοκοιτης/arsenokoités [1 Cor 6:9] variously as...

The problem is that I wasn't talking about 1 Cor 6.9. I was talking about Romans 1.27. I haven't said a word about the meaning of αρσενοκοιτης. The two ECF passages you cite that mention Romans 1.27 only quote it, they do not comment on it. They do not, in other words, expand our understanding of the passage.

 

[IamRedeemed]

If you want to be a rebel, you are entitled to be a rebel. You are also entitled to receive the consequences of that rebellion.

But no matter what you say or do, you cannot change what God has created and that which he condemns.

Jesus said, "What good is it, if a man gains the whole world, but loses his own soul."

So, you can keep lobbying all you want here on earth, but God has not changed and none of the things Jesus did, made it no longer necessary to follow natural laws.

I have said it before and I will say it again. (You all like to ignore those posts)

Not only did God not make for Adam a male and a female and let him choose, He made a perfect match which was FEMALE for Adam. If God wanted us to alternate, He would have given us alternate bodies, or made us all hermaphrodites, so we could go "either way". He did not do that, and only one combination of two can be fruitful and multiply aka reproduce, and that is the combination of male and female.

It is insane, to believe that God in His infinite wisdom, if He indeed created beings purposefully to desire their own sex, that He would expect them to express their love for one another by penetrating the canal He created to delete solid and toxic waste from the body.

What kind of God would force people to do that if He created them to love whomever they choose?

It doesn't matter if you choose non penetrating activities.

Many do not that are deviate and all heterosexuals DO make love the way God intended, using the body parts He intended them to use, unless they have a mental issue.

God created male and female to become ONE Flesh. So, if that grosses you out, there is a mental issue there to begin with.

It is common sense that homosexuality goes against the nature of the bodies we are given. That is a reality whether people believe in God or not.

For those of you who do, you truly have no excuse, because not only do you have nature telling you it is wrong, God who you claim to love has said it is detestable to Him and unless you turn from it, you will NOT enter the Kingdom no matter how many smart retorts you can come up with in a debate forum.

 

[tulc]

Not only did God not make for Adam a male and a female and let him choose, He made a perfect match which was FEMALE for Adam. If God wanted us to alternate, He would have given us alternate bodies, or made us all hermaphrodites, so we could go "either way". He did not do that, and only one combination of two can be fruitful and multiply aka reproduce, and that is the combination of male and female.

It is insane, to believe that God in His infinite wisdom, if He indeed created beings purposefully to desire their own sex, that He would expect them to express their love for one another by penetrating the canal He created to delete solid and toxic waste from the body.

What kind of God would force people to do that if He created them to love whomever they choose?

...but Adam wasn't gay. He liked girls. Well one anyway. No one is claiming everyone is gay, and actually you are the one who claims being gay is a choice, most of them believe they're born that way.

you will NOT enter the Kingdom no matter how many smart retorts you can come up with in a debate forum.

Well actually we all enter through accepting Jesus sacrifice on the cross for our sins.
tulc(smart remarks are just a side benefit)

 

[RMDY]

Baptists have their own beliefs......................the elements of bread and wine (or grape juice) are symbols only and do not become the Body and Blood of Christ, Biblical inerrancy and infallibility, etc.

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. (Luke 22:20 KJV) Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:19 KJV)

UberLutheran,

We are do this this do in remembrance of Jesus. (Luke 22:20). Whether its grape juice or wine, we do it in remembrance of Him. I attend a Baptist and an Anglican church: Baptist uses juice and Anglican uses wine: I have no problem with either one. Jesus didn't tell us to drink wine or juice, but to drink His blood and His flesh in remembrance of him.
It's alright though. I can understand. You want a very formal experience of remembering Jesus, which is fine Why not?
But just keep in mind that as long as we do it in remembrance, that is what counts.

In fact, when I've attended Baptist (or other conservative evangelical churches) on Sundays, I feel like I haven't properly "worshiped"

No problem! My girlfriend, who is an Anglican, feels the same way about the Baptist church that we both attend. She feels the Baptist church should be more formal and not casual. But whether your in a Baptist church or a Lutheran or a Catholic, or even in your own home, "where two or three of you have gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst" ( Matt. 18:15-20).

and usually try to find a Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist or Catholic church where I can worship in a way where it feels like I have truly worshiped. It's precisely because of these kinds of differences you're a Baptist and I'm a Lutheran.

Thats fine. It is better to feel more at home, this way, you feel more relaxed and joyful when you lean on the Lord.
=)

But, whether you feel it or not, God always is looking at your heart when you are worshiping and not your surroundings or what other peoples are doing. God looks at individuals, individually.
Remember: Matt. 18:15-20.

=)

 

[IamRedeemed]

...but Adam wasn't gay. He liked girls. Well one anyway. No one is claiming everyone is gay, and actually you are the one who claims being gay is a choice, most of them believe they're born that way.

Actually, God created Adam's mate for him. Adam didn't have an option of "liking girls". And no, I am not the one who claims that gay is a choice, that is just a fact. Facts are different than feelings.
At some point a choice was made, just as it is with any other bondage. The way we are made, makes it apparent that gay is a deviant option to the natural use of our bodies.

The fact that God's Word condemns homosexuality should settle the matter once and for all for them who believe in God and esteem His Word as the ultimate authority, and want to enter His Kingdom.

Well actually we all enter through accepting Jesus sacrifice on the cross for our sins.

Well you see, right there is where the problem is. We do not "accept" Jesus' sacrifice. We aren't doing Him a favor. We don't say a sinner's prayer and get a "get into Heaven free" coupon.

We REPENT and turn from our ways and commit to follow Him for the rest of our days and by repenting and confessing our sin as the sin that it is and allowing Him to change those areas in our lives that are displeasing in His sight, He redeems us with His shed blood, and transforms us day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year until we die or He calls us up hither, which ever comes first.

We do not get to eat of the King's table and the world's table at the same time. We have to make a choice. THAT is the difference between religion and relationship, True and False, Real and Imitation.

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and they follow me."


tulc(smart remarks are just a side benefit)

 

[UberLutheran]

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. (Luke 22:20 KJV) Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:19 KJV)

UberLutheran,

We are do this this do in remembrance of Jesus. (Luke 22:20). Whether its grape juice or wine, we do it in remembrance of Him. I attend a Baptist and an Anglican church: Baptist uses juice and Anglican uses wine: I have no problem with either one. Jesus didn't tell us to drink wine or juice, but to drink His blood and His flesh in remembrance of him.
It's alright though. I can understand. You want a very formal experience of remembering Jesus, which is fine Why not?
But just keep in mind that as long as we do it in remembrance, that is what counts.

No problem! My girlfriend, who is an Anglican, feels the same way about the Baptist church that we both attend. She feels the Baptist church should be more formal and not casual. But whether your in a Baptist church or a Lutheran or a Catholic, or even in your own home, "where two or three of you have gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst" ( Matt. 18:15-20).

Thats fine. It is better to feel more at home, this way, you feel more relaxed and joyful when you lean on the Lord.
=)

But, whether you feel it or not, God always is looking at your heart when you are worshiping and not your surroundings or what other peoples are doing. God looks at individuals, individually.
Remember: Matt. 18:15-20.

=)

You and I have just agreed on an entire post!

Look for the sun to rise in the west tomorrow morning and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to appear...

(Or rain in mid-July, in Texas, where we have an 80 percent chance of rain...)

 

[UberLutheran]

You didnt go to any Baptist service I have ever been to. We sing, worship, there is a sermon.

Now we dont chant and just recite things from memory like y'all do (yeah, like that's worship).

Well, sounds like you've been to enough of our kind of services to know pretty much what we do -- except that you missed the part where we walk into the middle of the pentagram and sacrifice a small animal!

 

[DMagoh]

Well, sounds like you've been to enough of our kind of services to know pretty much what we do -- except that you missed the part where we walk into the middle of the pentagram and sacrifice a small animal!

Well, if you are going to be so sensitive about your services, maybe you should not have made fun of ours first.

 

[UberLutheran]

This is what I posted:

Baptists have their own beliefs, such as baptism of adults by immersion, that the Eucharist (or the Lord's Supper) is an ordinance only and that the elements of bread and wine (or grape juice) are symbols only and do not become the Body and Blood of Christ, Biblical inerrancy and infallibility, etc.

On the few occasions I've had to attend Baptist services as an adult -- sorry, but I just can't relate to the service. No liturgy, no readings, no Eucharist -- I feel like a fish out of water. In fact, when I've attended Baptist (or other conservative evangelical churches) on Sundays, I feel like I haven't properly "worshiped" and usually try to find a Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist or Catholic church where I can worship in a way where it feels like I have truly worshiped. It's precisely because of these kinds of differences you're a Baptist and I'm a Lutheran.

I know that a literal interpretation and absolute inerrancy and infallibility floats your boat as far as Scripture goes, and if that works for you then more power to you; but the reason I don't take a literalist viewpoint of the Scriptures and am really not concerned about infallibility and inerrancy has absolutely nothing to do with my "lifestyle" (which is pretty darned boring, actually) and has everything to do with my belief that the Bible may be the Word of God in that it is the Word about God, but the texts are also 2,000 to 6,000 years old and I believe one has to take the time to study the Scriptures in the historical, social, political, religious (and linguistic) context in which they were written; and the results one gets by doing that kind of intensive study may be quite different from a literal reading of the Authorized Version (the KJV), or the American Standard, or Revised Standard, or any of the other translations of Scripture.

I am more than aware that some of the literalists on this board have their own way of interpreting Scripture (and doctrine) so as to prevent anybody who doesn't agree with their specific interpretations and doctrines from entering the Kingdom of God, and that's fine if we want to keep the population of Heaven low and comprised of People Who Think Just Like We Do And Agree With Everything We Happen To Believe; but I don't think Jesus (and Paul) were quite that exclusive and the fact that Jesus ate and socialized with sinners and Paul evangelized to Gentiles (and not necessarily Jews) demonstrates that fact.

And here is how you responded:

Now we dont chant and just recite things from memory like y'all do (yeah, like that's worship).

and

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberLutheran
...I happen to believe that when the stories are read literally, they're nonsense; but when they're read as allegories they happen to reveal quite a bit about the relationship of God to creation and God to humans.

The verse I quoted earlier is not even a story, so it cant be an allegory to teach something. It is just black words written on white paper. How do you misunderstand that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberLutheran
...I am more than aware that some of the literalists on this board have their own way of interpreting Scripture (and doctrine) so as to prevent anybody who doesn't agree with their specific interpretations and doctrines from entering the Kingdom of God

This is the same crap that you and others like to throw out all the time. I have NEVER said anyone was going to hell. Just because I think you are mistaken and are sinning, doesnt mean I think you are going to hell. Let me say this with emphasis so you can quit typing it over and over again.

NO ONE GOES TO HELL FOR ANYTHING THEY HAVE DONE. PEOPLE ONLY GO TO HELL FOR WHAT THEY DONT DO - IF THEY DONT RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR.

Now, you can continue to type your lie and be like "your president" who thinks if he says Sadaam was responsible for 9/11 often enough and that he had WMDs often enough, it will make it true.

Now, allow me to point out some things:

1. I expressed my thoughts, my feelings, my reactions, and my observations to Baptist services and expressed that they don't work for me. I never once said anything to the sort to imply or express that Baptist worship was invalid, or "bad", or anything of the like. It doesn't work for me. I even stated, "It's precisely because of these kinds of differences you're a Baptist and I'm a Lutheran." If worship in a Baptist or evangelical style works for you, then more power to you. It takes all kinds to make a world.
2. I never once mentioned your name, specifically, nor did I even imply the person to whom I was referring was you; yet you responded with personal attack of "this is the same crap you and others like you like to throw out all the time" and "you are mistaken and are sinning" and "you can continue to type your lie and be like "your president"". I think you grossly over-reacted, especially to stuff which was not referring to you.
3. I explained why I'm not a literalist or an inerrantist in some detail, and explained the method I use and why I use it -- and again, you responded with the following attack: "The verse I quoted earlier is not even a story, so it cant be an allegory to teach something. It is just black words written on white paper. How do you misunderstand that?"

I'll be perfectly blunt: I'm getting the sense that with these arguments, it's "your way or the highway" and these are no longer "debates" (as if they ever were) but more attempts for you to "convert" us over to your way of believing. Guess what? It ain't gonna happen. Even if I were heterosexual from birth I would still take a historical-critical method of analyzing and studying Scripture -- again, because the Scriptures were written by very, very fallible men in another time and social, political, historical and religious situation some 2000 to 6000 years ago. If you want to believe something 2000 to 6000 years old applies to the letter to every situation today -- that's well and fine for you; but some of the rest of us happen to believe (very strongly, in fact!) that God expects us to use the brains we were given and figure some things out on our own, given some general guidelines.

In the meantime, since we're not going to have a "debate" in the technical sense of the word, it would be nice if you could stay on topic and leave the personal attacks out of your posts.

 

[DMagoh]

...you responded with personal attack of "this is the same crap you and others like you like to throw out all the time" ...

Because you said
Originally Posted by UberLutheran
...I am more than aware that some of the literalists on this board have their own way of interpreting Scripture (and doctrine) so as to prevent anybody who doesn't agree with their specific interpretations and doctrines from entering the Kingdom of God

which IS crap.

I say again......I have NEVER said anyone was going to hell. Just because I think you are mistaken and are sinning, doesnt mean I think you are going to hell. Let me say this with emphasis AGAIN so you can quit typing it over and over again.

NO ONE GOES TO HELL FOR ANYTHING THEY HAVE DONE. PEOPLE ONLY GO TO HELL FOR WHAT THEY DONT DO - IF THEY DONT RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR.

And continuing to say that IS being like "your president" who thought if he said Sadaam was responsible for 9/11 often enough and that he had WMDs often enough, it would make it true.

 

[UberLutheran]

Because you said
Originally Posted by UberLutheran
...I am more than aware that some of the literalists on this board have their own way of interpreting Scripture (and doctrine) so as to prevent anybody who doesn't agree with their specific interpretations and doctrines from entering the Kingdom of God

which IS crap.

I say again......I have NEVER said anyone was going to hell. Just because I think you are mistaken and are sinning, doesnt mean I think you are going to hell. Let me say this with emphasis AGAIN so you can quit typing it over and over again.

NO ONE GOES TO HELL FOR ANYTHING THEY HAVE DONE. PEOPLE ONLY GO TO HELL FOR WHAT THEY DONT DO - IF THEY DONT RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR.

And continuing to say that IS being like "your president" who thought if he said Sadaam was responsible for 9/11 often enough and that he had WMDs often enough, it would make it true.

You know: it sounds like you have a real need to be "right" in this argument, so I'm going to let you be "right" and I hope you enjoy your little half a day.

This "debate" no longer holds my interest.

 

[IamRedeemed]

No one knows what decisions others will make before they die, so we cannot say who in particular is going to hell and who isn't, even though we can tell if someone is heading in that direction, because the Word tells us who will and who will not enter. For instance, we know that the Word says that we cannot enter the Kingdom if we are liars, adulterers, fornicators, murderers OR homosexuals, but I think what would send one to hell faster than homosexuality is trampling the Word of God, scoffing and mocking His Word, displaying contempt for His Word and to those who believe His Word, while wearing His Name and training others to do the same, as I believe by reading and studying the Word that it is impossible have salvation, while living and acting like an unbeliever, hating the Word of the One who saves us.

Because you said
Originally Posted by UberLutheran
...I am more than aware that some of the literalists on this board have their own way of interpreting Scripture (and doctrine) so as to prevent anybody who doesn't agree with their specific interpretations and doctrines from entering the Kingdom of God

which IS crap.

I say again......I have NEVER said anyone was going to hell. Just because I think you are mistaken and are sinning, doesnt mean I think you are going to hell. Let me say this with emphasis AGAIN so you can quit typing it over and over again.

NO ONE GOES TO HELL FOR ANYTHING THEY HAVE DONE. PEOPLE ONLY GO TO HELL FOR WHAT THEY DONT DO - IF THEY DONT RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR.

And continuing to say that IS being like "your president" who thought if he said Sadaam was responsible for 9/11 often enough and that he had WMDs often enough, it would make it true.

 

[DMagoh]

You know: it sounds like you have a real need to be "right" in this argument, so I'm going to let you be "right" and I hope you enjoy your little half a day.

This "debate" no longer holds my interest.

Aren't we self-righteous. You criticize me, then when I hit back, you play the martyr card. Sweet.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I think I'm beginning to see what pro-gay "theologists" are saying when they say they dont read scripture literally...

...Seems like if you dont read the words as they are actually written, you can make it say anything you want!​

Brother, with all due respect, many "Christianists" do the exact same thing with literalism.

A literalist interpretation of Scripture tells us that God is a rock that sent a bird to cause a virgin to give birth to a loaf of bread. And this is supposed to be an improvement on obtaining a chiseled code of conduct from a flaming shrubbery in a cloud. If a literal understanding is all that is required for faith, then I'm a yellow ducky, (Rabbi Ben Sylva).

 

[ChaliceThunder]

"In reality, there are no biblical literalists, only selective literalists. By abolishing slavery, adopting civil rights, having women as teachers, millions of Christians have rejected biblical literalism.”- William Sloane Coffin

QFT

 

[RMDY]

A literalist interpretation of Scripture tells us that God is a rock that sent a bird to cause a virgin to give birth to a loaf of bread.

Hi ChaliceThunder, =)
Hmm...kinda scary if people would think this way, considering Jesus taught us in John:

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him." (John 6:54-56)

I hope people don't resort to cannibalism as a result of these verses

(But some biblical verses can be literally taken and some should be interpreted differently, such as the verses above, because they have deeper meaning and are poetic or metaphorical =) )
God bless,

Rob