Lines of Evidence

[Gracchus]

Are you calling Christians, the ones of a Young Earth persuasion, mentally ill? Paranoid?Fearful?Needing to feel important? etc??

Religious people, patriots, racists, et cetera, do, demonstrably, act irrationally because they believe absurdities. (e.g talking snakes, and an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent father deity, who allows his children to be exploited, tortured, starved and murdered, et cetera, et cetera) Even the most cursory examination of history shows that clearly.

Firstly, I am not "paranoid" of anything. Most Christians are not even close to fearing death or what happens after. Same goes for fear.

I don't think you can sell that to anyone who isn't religious.

As for feeling important? Christianity is all about being humble and searving. You know? The first will be last sort of thing?

"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" -- Matthew 19:21 NIV

I would be willing to bet that you haven't done that, and the reason you haven't is because you are afraid to. I don't claim to follow him myself. I seek a better path, one informed by reason and not wishful thinking.

What is the "knowledge of certain mortality and insignificance" all about? I don't understand this.

It means that you are going to die, and after a few decades no one will know or care that you ever lived. Once the world rang with the fame and glory of men and women no one at all today would recognize or care about if they did. Death and obscurity are the common fate of us all.

Neither evolutionis or Christain is easily shaken from their belief by "rational arguments or evidence".

Are you disturbed? Your spelling is somewhat ... idiosyncratic.

Altering brain chemistry? really?

The drugs in question are called "antipsychotics", and by altering brain chemistry they can sometimes bring delusional people to recognize their delusions for what they are.

The satement I placed in bold could be stated by an evolutionist or a Christian, both about the other.

Paranoid delusions arise from fear, and from the need to feel important, denying the certain knowledge of mortality and insignificance. They cannot be shaken by rational arguments or evidence until brain chemistry is altered, and sometimes not even then.

I did not specify any particular brains. I do understand that the shoe fits many, but it seems to pinch you.

 

[EternalDragon]

Does it ever say how old adam was when they got the boot?

From all indications it wasn't long after the creation. Probably
day 6 or 7.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

As for feeling important? Christianity is all about being humble and searving. You know? The first will be last sort of thing?

The 'Christianity is the opposite of self-importance' argument always strikes me as deceptive. I mean, the belief that you were created by a supreme being is narcissistic in itself. The belief that you will carry on living for all eternity in paradise after you die as long as you maintain your beliefs is self-interest at about the most fundamental level you can get. And then to create a big drama out of the whole belief system with a supreme being watching YOU and your every action personally and even listening to all your thoughts and wishes (prayers) is pretty much the definition of an ego trip.

The whole thing is about making you feel important; that's what it's for.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Thank you for putting so much effort into your reply, you seem to have stirred up mad enough for me to see how the alliances are set here at C+F

Many of us do understand it. And we do know that we will never be able to reach them.

The 'Christianity is the opposite of self-importance' argument always strikes me as deceptive. I mean, the belief that you were created by a supreme being is narcissistic in itself. The belief that you will carry on living for all eternity in paradise after you die as long as you maintain your beliefs is self-interest at about the most fundamental level you can get. And then to create a big drama out of the whole belief system with a supreme being watching YOU and your every action personally and even listening to all your thoughts and wishes (prayers) is pretty much the definition of an ego trip.

The whole thing is about making you feel important; that's what it's for.

I have worked in mental wards. Paranoid delusions arise from fear, and from the need to feel important, denying the certain knowledge of mortality and insignificance. They cannot be shaken by rational arguments or evidence until brain chemistry is altered, and sometimes not even then.

There is certainly no doubt in my mind that what you are saying is true, but I'm sure that if you had been witness to every event by each patient (whether alone with a nurse, or in doctors rooms, or subsequent to that -- at home with families and more importantly in the private rooms of doctors and psychiatrists - and trusted ministers who work in close association with them. Oh, that does happen. ) There is a respect between men of the chemicals and men of metaphysical (not best word for "it" -- but I'm trying) -- and healing is certainly possible, but it can be very traumatic. Factor in that us humans are not as simple as some 'believe' we are. Complex nuts and bolts, each unique, each special. ( There enough of that in the writing of Viktor Frankl and certainly Albert Schweitzer -- about the sacredness of life).

Reality is: I am a speck among billions of human specks on a speck of dust circling a speck of dust that is one of hundreds of billions in our galaxy, which is a speck among hundreds of billions of galaxies. That is how significant I am.

Reality is: The tiniest speck of dust, is mostly emptiness, the most solid, densest matter is almost completely empty space.

Reality is: I am not a separate thing, I am a conscious pattern of the universe aware of myself. That is how significant I am.

Reality is: God exists as patterns in the human brain, in my brain. That is how significant I am.

Reality is: There is one reality, and I understand some of it, and so, something of myself. That is how significant I am.

Reality is: My life is as a single photon, emitted into a great dark, sometimes not visible, echoing in harmony and cacophony from the boundaries of space-time, but imperishable. That is how significant I am.

Crystal Cabinet

by Julian Huxley

The world of things entered your infant mind
To populate that crystal cabinet.
Within its walls the strangest partners met,
And things turned thoughts did propagate their kind.
For, once within, corporeal fact could find
A spirit. Fact and you in mutual debt
Built there your little microcosm - which yet
Had hugest tasks to its small self assigned.

Dead men can live there, and converse with stars:
Equator speaks with pole, and night with day;
Spirit dissolves the world's material bars -
A million isolations burn away.
The Universe can live and work and plan,
At last made God within the mind of man.

I'll need some time to reflect upon these thoughts (is first section yours?), and once again thank-you for putting so much effort into your reply.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Still very much in the self-deception camp I see.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Still very much in the self-deception camp I see.

It remains to be seen, who will still be ugly on that morning.

You say:

The 'Christianity is the opposite of self-importance' argument always strikes me as deceptive.

If by Christianity one means a religion created by humans, then it is certainly worse than deceptive -- for we have all seen the baby which emerged from its womb.

I mean, the belief that you were created by a supreme being is narcissistic in itself.

Beliefs are not static, they evolve. The new Pope of Rome, is certainly a good example of how even the man made religions of our world can adapt. For how long, is a matter of conjecture.

The belief that you will carry on living for all eternity in paradise after you die as long as you maintain your beliefs is self-interest at about the most fundamental level you can get.

Another construct of man made religion. What some have referred to as the religion of Cain.

And then to create a big drama out of the whole belief system with a supreme being watching YOU and your every action personally and even listening to all your thoughts and wishes (prayers) is pretty much the definition of an ego trip.

As far as man made religions go, the idea of exclusivity -- is definitely a common enough phenomenon.

The whole thing is about making you feel important; that's what it's for.

A rather shallow dig, but then you seem to have back log of considerable distaste for man made religion. I do too.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

The drugs in question are called "antipsychotics", and by altering brain chemistry they can sometimes bring delusional people to recognize their delusions for what they are.

So can certain types of prayer.*

---
* as I don't prescribe particulars, I think I aught to say that there are certain prayer disciplines that work, and others that are as Mr. Strawberry said: the definition of an ego trip.

 

[[serious]]

From all indications it wasn't long after the creation. Probably
day 6 or 7.

What indicates that?

 

[Loudmouth]

Firstly, what are they trying to reach me for? Are they worried for me? If so, what am I to be avoiding? Am I in danger?

We, as a society, could be in danger. There has been a fundamental christian political movement to remove science from the public school classroom. When we let religions decide what science can and can't be taught, we run the risk of tipping into a theocracy like those seen in the Middle East. Our society will never benefit from throwing out facts that contradict religious belief.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes, that's the same stance our little group took -- top-down organizations tend to adopt that strategy to avoid flare-ups.
When I moved away (early 2008), I thought I'd just slot in with same group (they work like a franchise) only to find myself sitting through one of most disappointing Sunday sermons. The pastor who was anti-Darwin and Evolution, went on and on and on -- not offering the tiniest fragment of actual substance. Synthesizing archaeological, anthropological, biological, Phyics and historical ideas with one's spirituality is a challenge -- I've listened to some great lectures by Dr. David Lahti (he's studying bird and human evolution) via Faraday, and enjoy the way they mix it up.

The congregation I belonged to adopted the position that YEC and evolution were not important for salvation. Jesus said that all have sinned and need saving, and that settled it. Delving into issues of original sin and evolution was just an unnecessary discussion because Jesus had already spoken on the issue of everyone needing salvation. By doing so, they didn't put an unnecessary barrier (i.e. creationism) between people and accepting Jesus. I think that is a good position for christians to adopt.

Thank you for explaining that. I'm not sure now, but I think that what's Glenn Morton stumbled upon too. He's a Geologist (retired now), and I enjoyed reading his story -- though I do so much prefer Karl Giberson's writing in SAVING DARWIN. I identify very strongly with his faith-journey, but then that's only because I'm exploring Evolution, my real area of interest is Anthropology and though I'm less interested now days (I dabble with Philosophy) - but the Arts are my passion.

Here are some other links that explain radiometric dating, one of which is written by a christian for christians:

Radiometric Dating

The other describes large blocks of data that show consistent and correlated ages for different objects. For example, the author shows that hundreds of measurements of the K/T boundary return the same date across different isotopes, different dating techniques, and different minerals.

Radiometric Dating Does Work! | NCSE

I have yet to see a creationist explain why the same rock has the same U/Pb, Rb/Sr, and K/Ar date. If radiometric dating is so unreliable, why is it so consistent? Why are all of these different isotoes in just the right ratios to produce a specific age?

It always get complicated when one is talking to an unresponsive person, student or teacher. Getting past the blocks, be they mental or emotional -- is the true challenge, for me.

Thanks for the chat.

No problem.

One of tactics I try to use is make people face their own dogmatism. Instead of trying to argue whether a fossil is transitional or not, what you can do is ask the creationist what features a transitional should have. This allows you to demonstrate to everyone that creationism requires you to close your eyes to the evidence. You can demonstrate that no evidence will change the mind of a creaitonist. The next step is to show how evolution, the age of the earth, and other scientific discoveries are open to falsification, and have changed as new evidence came forward. If you hold the openness of science next to the closed-mindedness of creationism, you may be able to change some minds.

 

[EternalDragon]

What indicates that?

The information we have from God's word.

 

[bhsmte]

The information we have from God's word.

Translation:

The information you perceive from a bunch of stories written by anonymous authors.

 

[EternalDragon]

Translation:

The information you perceive from a bunch of stories written by anonymous authors.

God breathed you mean.

The power of the breath of God in divine inspiration pervades Scripture. God breathed “the breath of life” into Adam (Genesis 2:7), and Jesus “breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’” (John 20:22). In 2 Peter 1:21 we are told that “prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Here we see the truths of Scripture described as coming directly from God, not from the will of the writers He used to record them.

Read more: What does it mean that the Bible is God-breathed?
​

 

[bhsmte]

God breathed you mean.

The power of the breath of God in divine inspiration pervades Scripture. God breathed “the breath of life” into Adam (Genesis 2:7), and Jesus “breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’” (John 20:22). In 2 Peter 1:21 we are told that “prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Here we see the truths of Scripture described as coming directly from God, not from the will of the writers He used to record them.

Read more: What does it mean that the Bible is God-breathed?
​

Tell that to the anonymous authors.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

God breathed you mean.

As you're a literalist, does that mean your god requires oxygen?

 

[Loudmouth]

God breathed you mean.

According to who? Anonymous human authors?

The power of the breath of God in divine inspiration pervades Scripture. God breathed “the breath of life” into Adam (Genesis 2:7), and Jesus “breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’” (John 20:22). In 2 Peter 1:21 we are told that “prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Here we see the truths of Scripture described as coming directly from God, not from the will of the writers He used to record them.

Read more: What does it mean that the Bible is God-breathed?
​

Those are all written by men.

 

[TLK Valentine]

God breathed you mean.

According to themselves.

Convenient, isn't it?

 

[TLK Valentine]

As you're a literalist, does that mean your god requires oxygen?

Don't be silly; you know perfectly well that literalism, like far too many other Christian values, are maintained only so long as they are convenient.

 

[[serious]]

The information we have from God's word.

And where in the bible is that indicated?

It's starting to feel like you are just dodging the question.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

And where in the bible is that indicated?

It's starting to feel like you are just dodging the question.

It has 4003 in the margin of my old KJV. (*) So, if we estimate that Adam was about 20 - 30 years old when he was made from dust of the ground and נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים from the mouth of God וַיִּפַּ֥ח into the nostrils -- then he would have been 21 or 31 -- when was driven out of the Garden,

(*)The work done on this dating* is pretty highly regarded, even by the late Stephen Gould.**

---
*The Ussher Chronology

'....We castigate Ussher for making the creation so short – a mere six days, where we reckon billions for evolution. But Ussher fears that six days might seem too long in the opinion of his contemporaries, for why should God, who could do all in an instant, so spread out his work? “Why was he creating so long, seeing he could have perfected all the creatures at once and in a moment?” Ussher gives a list of answers, but one caught my attention both for its charm and for its incisive statement about the need for sequential order in teaching – as good a rationale as one could ever devise for working out a chronology in the first place! “To teach us the better to understand their workmanship; even as a man which will teach a child in the frame of a letter, will first teach him one line of the letter, and not the whole letter together.”....'
** http://www.bethinking.org/is-there-a-creator/conflict-myths-bishop-ussher-and-the-date-of-creation

Additional Reading:

'And the Lord God created Adam from dust of the ground, and breathed upon his face the breath of lives, and it became in Adam a Discoursing Spirit.' - The Targum of Onkelos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bKa92eLkQM
Science and Genesis - N.T. Wright, John Polkinghorne, Allister McGrath