Lines of Evidence ( Part 1 : ERVs )

[Loudmouth]

Agreed - it tells us that the tree of life does not reflect actual lines of decent - since those Viruses bring the genetic code from the monkey to the man and vise versa - and is not passed down because they are related through hereditary. That's what those viruses tell us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer_in_evolution

How do you think you got the 200,000 or so ERV's in your genome? How did you parents, siblings, and close relatives also get those same ERV's? Let's see what is required for orthologous ERV's to be the product of HGT instead of VGT (vertical genetic transfer).

1. All ERV's have to be removed from the genomes of germ line cells, the cells responsible for producing sperm and eggs.

2. While still in the womb, the developing embryo needs to be infected 200,000 times with a multitude of retroviruses that no virologist has found infecting any human population.

3. All of those mysterious 200,000 infections need to produce insertions at the same locations as found in other human genomes 99.9% of the time, even though independent insertions should only produce orthologous insertions 1 out of every 40,000 insertions.

4. Rinse and repeat for every single person in the human lineage for the last 5 million years.

Your explanation doesn't hold up.

The reason that we find 200,000 of the same ERV insertions at the same locations in two organisms is that the insertion happened once in a common ancestor and that each of those insertion was passed down vertically to its descendants.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Now we're getting somewhere.

Absolutely! I think where this breaks down, is when one fails to ask questions, think and come back with honest responses to the answers being provided.
As I did not have the advantage of a proper education with regards to Biology, I've had to go back to the beginning (in much the same way one might learn a new language) and work really hard at understanding the glossary of terms relative to it.

 

[Loudmouth]

Absolutely! I think where this breaks down, is when one fails to ask questions, think and come back with honest responses to the answers being provided.
As I did not have the advantage of a proper education with regards to Biology, I've had to go back to the beginning (in much the same way one might learn a new language) and work really hard at understanding the glossary of terms relative to it.

One of the earliest things you are taught past basic high school biology are the latin and greek roots. Cyto- means cell. Myo- means muscle. Retro- means reverse. Those sorts of things. With that basic knowledge, you can sort through quite a few biological terms. The tough part is when you get to medical terms which often have a history of their own that isn't tied to the greek and latin traditions in biology.

 

[Loudmouth]

I'm stuck on the simple stuff. Like the 'evolution' of range of motion of limbs and other appendages. I'm particularly interested in the evolution of bird's flight. Like, how many neural/muscle connections are needed to move the wing over a certain distance? And how were these connections made in the first place? And do birds really 'learn' how to fly, or do they fly when they are 'ready' to fly without any training. How does flapping their wings while in the nest prepare them for aerial maneuvers such as gliding, turning, landing, etc., that they do successfully the first time they're airborne? My questions like this are endless. I'm the kid who keeps asking "Why", until dad runs out of answers and shuts down the conversation.

What does this have to do with the ERV evidence for common ancestry between humans and chimps?

 

[Loudmouth]

And one thing that I like about ERV's is that they give the evolution side a valid "odds argument". When ever I see a creationist odd's argument the way to refute it is to show that their basic assumptions are wrong. Once you do that it does not matter how good their math is. At that point they are already at the stage of GIGO.

The first creationist argument we often hear is that it makes sense that the same virus would produce the same insertions in genomes that are very similar. This is blown away by the probabilities of this really happening.

On the other hand creationists have not been able to refute ERV arguments. Not only do they "look like viruses" to the point where they are obvious to virologists. At least one example of a recent one has been "revived". And we can shown that they do attach randomly and that the same viruses, except for expected mutations, can be found in equivalent positions in the genome of different species. It is the slam dunk for evolution that creationists keep demanding. Yet of course they still reject it. In fact one cannot be a creationist without eventually denying all science.

It is another demonstration of the creationist double standard. They say it isn't science because we don't observe it happening in the lab or in the wild. However, when you show them observations of retroviruses producing ERV's in the lab and in the wild . . . well, all of the sudden those observations don't count because . . . just because. We observe orthologous ERV's being passed down vertically every time a human is born. In koalas, we can even observe new ERV's appearing in their genomes that exactly matches a retrovirus that is currently infecting that population.

This is usually the point where creationists invent a fantasy past where the fundamental forces of physics and chemistry were all different, while at the same time arguing for fine tuning.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The first creationist argument we often hear is that it makes sense that the same virus would produce the same insertions in genomes that are very similar. This is blown away by the probabilities of this really happening.

Weren't 'probabilities' waved off as unimportant in regard to evolution in a similar thread recently?

 

[Loudmouth]

Weren't 'probabilities' waved off as unimportant in regard to evolution in a similar thread recently?

What was probably waived off were the assumptions that those probabilities were based on. If the assumptions are wrong, then GIGO.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

One of the earliest things you are taught past basic high school biology are the latin and greek roots. Cyto- means cell. Myo- means muscle. Retro- means reverse. Those sorts of things. With that basic knowledge, you can sort through quite a few biological terms. The tough part is when you get to medical terms which often have a history of their own that isn't tied to the greek and latin traditions in biology.

Perhaps where you came from, this was the case. I studied Latin and French in my first year at High School -- Latin is extremely good for understanding English, however I only took Biology in my third year in High School and barely passed it.
I was expelled at the beginning of my fourth year in High School and though I tried to do part-time courses in various fields of study, I was only able to take on my final year of High School (skipping all the learning of the 4th year) and basically taught myself the Latin words and the definitions associated with it without so much as a single classroom lesson. I basically bought the text book, read it and passed it first time round. (I didn't do that well, but I was fortunate to have a burning desire to complete my High School education)

My subjects were English, Afrikaans, Economics, Mercantile Law (which I failed), Biology and Biblical Studies (a nice one, seeing as I also love the Lord and enjoy studying the Christian sacred texts)

What I find hard is getting my mind around the many varied terms used in understanding Evolution. It was not part of the curriculum at the highest pedigree school when I was growing up, so I had zero background in it -- I only had the anti-Evolution story presented by (Dr - ?) Kent Hovind and a smidgen of the sort of thing that Morris taught in his book Scientific Creationism.

Only once I learned to back-off enough to listen to what was being explained (refer back to my initial comment in this regard), was I able to begin the painful process of unlearning what I had associated with the most diabolical being in history. ( Satan ) I am not the only one who has been this route -- learning what one associates with desertion, excommunication and the complete rejection and hatred of those who were close, is probably been the loneliest and saddest place to be in.

You see Loudmouth, i see you are very determined to explain what you understand -- BUT do you not perhaps make it too hard for the man on the street to follow? Also do you not think that your position as an Agnostic puts too much distance between yourself and the ones you are trying to help understand the complexities of ERVs and how they relate to the evidence which relates to Evolution?

 

[Loudmouth]

Perhaps where you came from, this was the case. I studied Latin and French in my first year at High School -- Latin is extremely good for understanding English, however I only took Biology in my third year in High School and barely passed it.

Take the word leukocyte as an example. Leukos is greek for white, and kytos is greek for container. In biology, that container is the cell. Therefore, a leuko-cyte is a white cell. That is why we call the white blood cells leukocytes. If someone has leukocytopenia then we add the greek word penia which means poverty. Someone with luekocytopenia has a low white blood cell count.

What I find hard is getting my mind around the many varied terms used in understanding Evolution. It was not part of the curriculum at the highest pedigree school when I was growing up, so I had zero background in it -- I only had the anti-Evolution story presented by (Dr - ?) Kent Hovind and a smidgen of the sort of thing that Morris taught in his book Scientific Creationism.

If there are terms you don't understand, I would be happy to explain them. I try to aim just a little bit above high school biology and just a little bit below a university level Bio 101.

You see Loudmouth, i see you are very determined to explain what you understand -- BUT do you not perhaps make it too hard for the man on the street to follow? Also do you think that your position as an Agnostic puts too much distance between yourself and the ones you are trying to help understand the complexities of ERVs and how they relate to the evidence for Evolution?

Many other people from the street seem to understand it.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Take the word leukocyte as an example. Leukos is greek for white, and kytos is greek for container. In biology, that container is the cell. Therefore, a leuko-cyte is a white cell. That is why we call the white blood cells leukocytes. If someone has leukocytopenia then we add the greek word penia which means poverty. Someone with luekocytopenia has a low white blood cell count.

Yes. I learned of this from a not-too-drunk friend, after which she gave me a list of some very interesting books to read. I need to be nicely intoxicated before I show the slightest interest in Musical notation, my reaction to Latin is the same. I prefer French, Italian and maybe some German -- I've studied a year of Hebrew and disregarded Greek in the same way I disregard Latin. It's dry, boring and reminds of the same reaction I had to singing the entire school anthem in Latin -- let me try, 'Gadiamus igitur, juvenus dum sumus ... post molestum sanctutum .. blah, blah, blah'

If there are terms you don't understand, I would be happy to explain them. I try to aim just a little bit above high school biology and just a little bit below a university level Bio 101.

For me the very essential stuff is still settling i.e. Selection, Mutation etc. You have no idea how frustrating it is at my age to have to take on board so many long definitions, with subdivisions etc. I do value the truth that with Evolution it's best to choose a particular kind i.e. Evolution of birds, human or other and master one or two of them (if one is smart enough) -- I still haven't chosen, though I have found Human Evolution as explained by John Hawks a worthwhile way of spending my time. He is a marvelous teacher!

Many other people from the street seem to understand it.

Oh, I see you go in for that sort of thing. Patting yourself on the back. I find your answers can be awfully long winded and I have read them over and over and over again. You are very technical -- this I appreciate -- but often it's just overkill! Keep it simple and you might have time to consider the big questions.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes. I learned of this from a not-too-drunk friend, after which she gave me a list of some very interesting books to read. I need to be nicely intoxicated before I show the slightest interest in Musical notation, my reaction to Latin is the same. I prefer French, Italian and maybe some German -- I've studied a year of Hebrew and disregarded Greek in the same way I disregard Latin. It's dry, boring and reminds of the same reaction I had to singing the entire school anthem in Latin -- let me try, 'Gadiamus igitur, juvenus dum sumus ... post molestum sanctutum .. blah, blah, blah'

All I can say is that education requires effort. The journey of a thousand miles doesn't start with, "Gee, I don't feel like walking today".

For me the very essential stuff is still settling i.e. Selection, Mutation etc. You have no idea how frustrating it is at my age to have to take on board so many long definitions, with subdivisions etc. I do value the truth that with Evolution it's best to choose a particular kind i.e. Evolution of birds, human or other and master one or two of them (if one is smart enough) -- I still haven't chosen, though I have found Human Evolution as explained by John Hawks a worthwhile way of spending my time. He is a marvelous teacher!

I prefer to learn the larger concepts before trying to zero in on the fine details, but everyone is different.

Oh, I see you got in for that sort of thing. Patting yourself on the back. I find your answers can be awfully long winded and I have read them over and over and over again. You are very technical -- this I appreciate -- but often it's just overkill! Keep it simple and you might have time to consider the big questions.

Where did you get the idea that I haven't considered the big questions?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

All I can say is that education requires effort. The journey of a thousand miles doesn't start with, "Gee, I don't feel like walking today".

I need to love what I'm doing, or I lose interest.

I prefer to learn the larger concepts before trying to zero in on the fine details, but everyone is different.

Throughout my life, I've learned much from those who are humble about what they know and are quick to confess when they don't know something. A good teacher is more than just a dictionary of definitions, but one who is able to break it down in the language of the person they are teaching. Some just seem to have the knack!

Where did you get the idea that I haven't considered the big questions?

Do you have time? I mean you spend a lot of time doing Science-speak -- do you have time to study the Semitic Languages, The Targums and such? Big subjects such as Biblical prophecy require years of dedicated study. How big do you wanna go?

 

[Loudmouth]

Throughout my life, I've learned much from those who are humble about what they know and are quick to confess when they don't know something. A good teacher is more than just a dictionary of definitions, but one who is able to break it down in the language of the person they are teaching. Some just seem to have the knack!

Is there something specific in this thread that you would like me to explain?

Do you have time? I mean you spend a lot of time doing Science-speak -- do you have time to study the Semitic Languages, The Targums and such? Big subjects such as Biblical prophecy require years of dedicated study. How big do you wanna go?

That is a small picture. You are talking about one single religion out of thousands.

 

[sfs]

I need to be nicely intoxicated before I show the slightest interest in Musical notation, my reaction to Latin is the same. I prefer French, Italian and maybe some German -- I've studied a year of Hebrew and disregarded Greek in the same way I disregard Latin. It's dry, boring and reminds of the same reaction I had to singing the entire school anthem in Latin -- let me try, 'Gadiamus igitur, juvenus dum sumus ... post molestum sanctutum .. blah, blah, blah'

But that's a drinking song -- hardly dry and boring.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Is there something specific in this thread that you would like me to explain?

I doubt that will happen.

That is a small picture. You are talking about one single religion out of thousands.

Why are you here?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

But that's a drinkier wng song -- hardly dry and boring.

It's hellish old fashioned and rather droll for a drinking song. Back then we preferred to sing something like 'American Pie' -- after which the boys and girls in a joint school play, intoxicated beyond our limits, collapsed in a wild heap on the floor. Now those were hardly dry and boring tunes.

 

[sfs]

It's hellish old fashioned and rather droll for a drinking song. Back then we preferred to sing something like 'American Pie' -- after which the boys and girls in a joint school play, intoxicated beyond our limits, collapsed in a wild heap on the floor. Now those were hardly dry and boring tunes.

Would this by any chance have anything to do with your reported expulsion from high school?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Would this by any chance have anything to do with your reported expulsion from high school?

No. Letting off a little wild flame or two after the tension and excitement of the play, would hardly have earned me expulsion. Unless, I'd done so outside of curfew -- at most one might have received a sound caning for that.

As you well know, if one is an integral part of the sporting activities at certain classy schools -- they don't easily let one go.

No. I was a boarder and one of the teachers had a penchant for exploiting lonely boys. Along with abusing his authority by having me run errands at his every beck and call, he also took to belittling and demeaning me -- to the point where I could handle it no longer. I packed my rucksack, tossed my cheese cutter out onto the Junior school rugby field where I'd spent many an afternoon training and left the school -- and what might have been the best possible education I could have ever received.

Being absent outside of two weeks, I was warned to return or be expelled. I chose to remain hidden and finished my third year at a C-model school (co-ed -- nice) -- Unfortunately I was too wild (a child of the times) and during the first term of my fourth year there, I chose to crib directly from my Science book; was found out; got sent to see the headmaster; met him en-route and was sent packing with the stern words, "Never come back to this school!"

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

A very useful comment. Thanks.

'....when you show them observations of retroviruses producing ERV's in the lab and in the wild . . . well, all of the sudden those observations don't count because . . . just because. We observe orthologous ERV's being passed down vertically every time a human is born. In koalas, we can even observe new ERV's appearing in their genomes that exactly matches a retrovirus that is currently infecting that population. ....'

 

[Loudmouth]

I doubt that will happen.

You doubt that you will ask for clarification, or that I will try to help you understand the material?

Why are you here?

To expose the pseudoscience of creationism.