a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.
What if youre a child or mentally incompetentChrist's death defeated sin in TOTAL. All sin - there is not ONE sin that is not atoned for, this way, He was the COMPLETE propitiation for sin, everyone has the chance/choice to be saved, and no one is with excuse, no one can say, "but God, you didn't let Christ die for my sins, so how can I be saved?"...
I know God draws only some to salvation. But if Jesus died for the sins of unbelievers, they will still go to Hell, because they have committed the unforgivable sin, continued unbelief.Hi Fish14, we know that no one can come to Christ unless they are first "drawn" by His Father .. John 6:44.
We also know that ALL who the Father draws and gives to His Son will come to Him, and that NONE of these will be lost/all will be raised to eternal life .. John 6:37-40.
Therefore, if ALL (meaning literally everyone who has ever lived) are "drawn" by the Father, then ALL will necessarily be saved, yes?
This would mean the Atonement is UN-limited in the most universal sense, of course. However, if you do not believe the Atonement is Universal (I do not), that can only mean one thing, that God draws only some of us, and that the Atonement is therefore, "particular" or "limited" as a result.
Thanks!
Yours and His,
David
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44
There is more than one theory of salvation in the Christian world you know.
Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia
What if youre a child or mentally incompetent
Most of them are false.
That is a calvinist lie. God draws everyone. But only some chose to respond to the draw.I know God draws only some to salvation.
There are many things like that for which the bible does not answer. The only thing we have in those cases is God's tremendous love and compassion for us His children.What if youre a child or mentally incompetent
There is no scriptural support for that assumption.I believe in an age of accountability, which is different for everyone.
I didn't say that He did. I asked the question.In what manner has/will Christ suffer ETERNALLY
No one said that He suffered many "times" nor even asked the question concerning whether He did.He suffered "once for all time", not many times,
How could you possibly know what goes on on a cosmic scale between the eternal Father and the eternal Son unless you have been told?.....certainly not for an eternity.
No - ALL things were created by the Word of God, for the Word of God and in the Word of God all things consist.Apart from Him, all will suffer eternally for their sins, but He won't (and He does not today).
Exactly. And that is my point. We do not know one way or the other.There is nothing against it either...
I am no calvinist, hyper or any other kind.I know you Hyper Calvinist think if a baby dies it goes to Hell...
The truth of limited atonement stands or falls on that assumption.
Me too.Hi Marvin, I certainly hope that's not true, that this, or any other doctrine, stands or falls based upon an assumption, rather than on the clear teaching of the word of God.
Thanks for the very scriptural teaching on irrestible grace and the perseverance of the saints.So let's see what the word of God has to say about this
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44
I mentioned these verses earlier in this thread. They speak of the absolute necessity of the Father's "drawing" in salvation (because none can come to Christ and be saved apart from it). They also tell us that all who are drawn will come to faith and be saved, & that NONE of these "drawn ones" will ever be lost
The Lord also says this:
Matthew 7
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Two out of three are solid doctrine.So in summary, the Bible teaches us this:
1) that our salvation is dependent upon the Father's drawing of us
2) that ALL who are drawn WILL come to faith in Christ and be saved
3) that God's drawing (& therefore the atonement) is limited, because we know that some are lost
We know that the effectual calling of God is limited.Our understanding of the atonement isn't reached by one or more extra-Biblical assumptions, rather, we know that the atonement is limited because that's exactly what the Bible says it is
I believe that the TULIP memory crutch is valid in most respects. But I disagree that limited atonement is a logical conclusion.I will consider what you've said and get back to you. I will say this much now however, since you believe that the effectual calling/drawing of God is limited, then it's hard for me to believe that we are not on the same page about most of this
a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.
Don't you think that His doing the will of the Father (namely suffering for the sins of the world and not loosing any whom the Father gives to Him and draws to Him) was satisfying to His soul?Let's put it this way. If you died for 20 people, suffering unimaginable pain, suffocating on a cross, would you be satisfied if at the end of your ordeal only 19 were saved? Nope, Yet Christ was "satisfied." That tells me that all who He died for WILL be saved. He will not lose one.
Since I believe universal salvation is not taught in the Bible, this leaves me with one conclusion. Jesus Christ died for the elect, and He shall lose none.
Isaiah 53:
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Don't you think that His doing the will of the Father (namely suffering for the sins of the world and not loosing any whom the Father gives to Him and draws to Him) was satisfying to His soul?
While your conclusion concerning the elect is correct in my estimation - it would not be logically necessary to say that He did not therefore die also for the non-elect IMO.
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