Limited vs unlimited atonement?

Steve Petersen

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a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

There is more than one theory of salvation in the Christian world you know.

Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia
 
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Zoii

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Christ's death defeated sin in TOTAL. All sin - there is not ONE sin that is not atoned for, this way, He was the COMPLETE propitiation for sin, everyone has the chance/choice to be saved, and no one is with excuse, no one can say, "but God, you didn't let Christ die for my sins, so how can I be saved?"...
What if youre a child or mentally incompetent
 
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Fish14

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Hi Fish14, we know that no one can come to Christ unless they are first "drawn" by His Father .. John 6:44.

We also know that ALL who the Father draws and gives to His Son will come to Him, and that NONE of these will be lost/all will be raised to eternal life .. John 6:37-40.

Therefore, if ALL (meaning literally everyone who has ever lived) are "drawn" by the Father, then ALL will necessarily be saved, yes?

This would mean the Atonement is UN-limited in the most universal sense, of course. However, if you do not believe the Atonement is Universal (I do not), that can only mean one thing, that God draws only some of us, and that the Atonement is therefore, "particular" or "limited" as a result.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44
I know God draws only some to salvation. But if Jesus died for the sins of unbelievers, they will still go to Hell, because they have committed the unforgivable sin, continued unbelief.


I believe only the death of an innocent person satisfies God's justice (Exodus 12:5).
Is continued unbelief an unforgivable sin in itself or because it leads to Hell, where you will never be forgiven?
Anyway unbelievers can't get out of Hell before they have paid for their sins (Matthew 5:26). Only Jesus can pay for their sins and therefore they never get out.

When I ask if Christ atoned for unbelievers' sins, I really want to know why unbelievers go to Hell.
  • Because of all their sins. Jesus paid none of them.
  • Jesus atoned for all their sins except the unforgivable sin. That is the sin they go to Hell for.
 
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DarthNeo

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What if youre a child or mentally incompetent

I believe in an age of accountability, which is different for everyone. I also believe you are held accountable for the "light you are given/shown."

I believe God is fair and does NOT send children who do not yet comprehend salvation, nor the mentally incompetent, to Hell...
 
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Dave-W

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I know God draws only some to salvation.
That is a calvinist lie. God draws everyone. But only some chose to respond to the draw.
 
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Dave-W

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What if youre a child or mentally incompetent
There are many things like that for which the bible does not answer. The only thing we have in those cases is God's tremendous love and compassion for us His children.
 
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Dave-W

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I believe in an age of accountability, which is different for everyone.
There is no scriptural support for that assumption.
 
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Marvin Knox

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In what manner has/will Christ suffer ETERNALLY :scratch:
I didn't say that He did. I asked the question.

I'm merely pointing out that there could be a different way of looking at things which precludes the necessity of saying that if Christ bore Hitler's or Juadas' sin then Hitler and Judas must be in Heaven.

The truth of limited atonement stands or falls on that assumption.
He suffered "once for all time", not many times,
No one said that He suffered many "times" nor even asked the question concerning whether He did.

By the way - eternal suffering is no more suffering "many" times than eternal life is living "many" times.

But even so --- the passage is talking about the earthly suffering and not necessarily something within the Godhead itself.
.....certainly not for an eternity.
How could you possibly know what goes on on a cosmic scale between the eternal Father and the eternal Son unless you have been told?

God has chosen to leave that doctrine in the dark at least for now.
Apart from Him, all will suffer eternally for their sins, but He won't (and He does not today :)).
No - ALL things were created by the Word of God, for the Word of God and in the Word of God all things consist.

I say again - ALL things. That includes you, me, Satan, the angels Hitler, Judas, Heaven and Hell.

God is infinite and omnipresent. Omnipresent means everywhere including Hell.

God's Word creates and sustains all things and He always will.

Nothing exists or ever will exist, in the way you incorrectly say, "apart" from the Word of God.

The Lion and the Lamb are said to exist IN the throne of God. That is likely eternally.

I have no iside knowledge as to how things work within the eternal Godhead and neither do you and neither do "limited atonement" proponents. I have never claimed otherwise.

Apparently 5 point Calvinists have an inside track on things which the rest of us must merely marvel and wonder at.

If there are other possible ways to see thing- then there is absolutely no reason to apply so called human ligic to the issue and call the atonement "limited".

The idea that if Jesus died for the sins of the entire world then all must be saved is not logically necessary.

My only point is that we should not go beyond what the scriptures say in teaching dogma. Limited atonement does exactly that.

Before someone accuses me of doing that very thing - I have not taught dogma on this subject only pointed out that there are other ways of seeing things possible.

I long to look into these things just as you all do. Apparently though, 5 pointers think they have the inscrutible things of God all figured out.
 
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Dave-W

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There is nothing against it either...
Exactly. And that is my point. We do not know one way or the other.

And that is OK.
I know you Hyper Calvinist think if a baby dies it goes to Hell...
I am no calvinist, hyper or any other kind.

But if I understand calvinism correctly, if the infant dies and is on the "list" as predestined to be in the Elect - they would automatically go to heaven.
Otherwise, it would be as you say.
 
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St_Worm2

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The truth of limited atonement stands or falls on that assumption.

Hi Marvin, I certainly hope that's not true, that this, or any other doctrine, stands or falls based upon an assumption, rather than on the clear teaching of the word of God.

So let's see what the word of God has to say about this :)

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44

I mentioned these verses earlier in this thread. They speak of the absolute necessity of the Father's "drawing" in salvation (because none can come to Christ and be saved apart from it). They also tell us that all who are drawn will come to faith and be saved, & that NONE of these "drawn ones" will ever be lost :amen:

The Lord also says this:

Matthew 7
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

So in summary, the Bible teaches us this:

1) that our salvation is dependent upon the Father's drawing of us
2) that ALL who are drawn WILL come to faith in Christ and be saved
3) that God's drawing (& therefore the atonement) is limited, because we know that some are lost​

Our understanding of the atonement isn't reached by one or more extra-Biblical assumptions, rather, we know that the atonement is "limited" because that's exactly what the Bible says it is :preach:

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - one last thing, ἑλκύω [helkuo], which is translated as "draws" in John 6:44, speaks of a "drawing done by an irresistible force" (Peter ἑλκύω/drew his sword; Paul and Silas were ἑλκύω/dragged before the magistrate). It doesn't mean that God "woos" us, and then hopes that we will choose Him (we won't .. Romans 3:10-12). In fact, ἑλκύω [helkuo] NEVER means "woo" or "entice", either Biblically or extra-Biblically. If "woo" was intended, then δελεάζω [deleazo] would have been used instead, because that's what δελεάζω means (woo/entice), and that's how it's used in the Bible .. e.g. James 1:14.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Hi Marvin, I certainly hope that's not true, that this, or any other doctrine, stands or falls based upon an assumption, rather than on the clear teaching of the word of God.
Me too.

That is why I'm calling out limited atonement proponents. They should not base a doctrine on an assumption.

Their assumption is that if Christ atoneed for the sins of everyone then everyone would be saved.

That's a false assumption.
So let's see what the word of God has to say about this :)

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44

I mentioned these verses earlier in this thread. They speak of the absolute necessity of the Father's "drawing" in salvation (because none can come to Christ and be saved apart from it). They also tell us that all who are drawn will come to faith and be saved, & that NONE of these "drawn ones" will ever be lost :amen:
Thanks for the very scriptural teaching on irrestible grace and the perseverance of the saints.

I subscribe and don't need it but others may need the lesson.

At any rate those verses do not speak to limited atonement which was the subject of my posts.
The Lord also says this:

Matthew 7
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Thanks again.

I believe the Lord. I do not believe in universal salvation.​
So in summary, the Bible teaches us this:

1) that our salvation is dependent upon the Father's drawing of us
2) that ALL who are drawn WILL come to faith in Christ and be saved
3) that God's drawing (& therefore the atonement) is limited, because we know that some are lost​
Two out of three are solid doctrine.

The third would if it were not for your parenthetical editorial.

God's drawing is obviously limited in some way.

But, as I have shown, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not.
Our understanding of the atonement isn't reached by one or more extra-Biblical assumptions, rather, we know that the atonement is limited because that's exactly what the Bible says it is :preach:
We know that the effectual calling of God is limited.

We know no such thing about the atonement.

We know that Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world - as the scriptures clearly teach.
"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

Please don't go into how whole world doesn't always mean whole world. I've heard it all before and in fact have taught it all before.

So long as there is a single way that the atonement can be looked at that makes it unecessary to assume that all who's sins were atoned for must be saved - limited atonement becomes a clear overreach of logic by men.

(They are well meaning men in most cases no doubt - just as I was until I thought it through.)
 
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St_Worm2

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I will consider what you've said and get back to you. I will say this much now however, since you believe that the effectual calling/drawing of God is limited, then it's hard for me to believe that we are not on the same page about most of this :)
 
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Marvin Knox

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I will consider what you've said and get back to you. I will say this much now however, since you believe that the effectual calling/drawing of God is limited, then it's hard for me to believe that we are not on the same page about most of this :)
I believe that the TULIP memory crutch is valid in most respects. But I disagree that limited atonement is a logical conclusion.

It strikes me that many so called Calvinists or Refomed refuse to think outside of the box.

The same thing seems to be true for Arminians.

IMO Calvinists do not need to believe in limited atonement to be good Calvinists. (In fact Calvin himself did not believe in limited atonement as usually taught now days by 5 pointers.)

Likewise just because an Arminian rejects limited atonement does not follow that he should refuse to examine the other letters which are valid doctrine, IMO.

IMO - the truth of "soteriology" is found somewhere in the middle but more than slightly leaning toward Calvinism.

Would that all (Calvinists and Arminians alike) would simply examine things for themselves and not feel that they must blindly follow the complete party line of their particular group.
 
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Late Apex

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a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

Let's put it this way. If you died for 20 people, suffering unimaginable pain, suffocating on a cross, would you be satisfied if at the end of your ordeal only 19 were saved? Nope, Yet Christ was "satisfied." That tells me that all who He died for WILL be saved. He will not lose one.

Since I believe universal salvation is not taught in the Bible, this leaves me with one conclusion. Jesus Christ died for the elect, and He shall lose none.

Isaiah 53:
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Let's put it this way. If you died for 20 people, suffering unimaginable pain, suffocating on a cross, would you be satisfied if at the end of your ordeal only 19 were saved? Nope, Yet Christ was "satisfied." That tells me that all who He died for WILL be saved. He will not lose one.

Since I believe universal salvation is not taught in the Bible, this leaves me with one conclusion. Jesus Christ died for the elect, and He shall lose none.

Isaiah 53:
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Don't you think that His doing the will of the Father (namely suffering for the sins of the world and not loosing any whom the Father gives to Him and draws to Him) was satisfying to His soul?

While your conclusion concerning the elect is correct in my estimation - it would not be logically necessary to say that He did not therefore die also for the non-elect IMO.
 
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Marvin Knox

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By the way - I am Reformed in most of my thinking just as 5 pointers are. The exclusion being the unecessary and offensive doctrine of so called limited atonement.

As a Reformed believer I believe that I was saved by faith only because of and through the grace of God.

But, just like Arminians and all Bible believing Calvinists, I believe that I spent a great deal of my life as an enemy of God and under His wrath until exercising saving faith (regardless of election playing a part or not).

All orthodox Calvinists agree that election, predestination and whatever else may play a part in our coming to Christ does not in and of itself save anyone. To say that Calvinism teaches otherwise is only an anti-Calvinist straw man.

One is only saved by faith in Christ. Granted we believe that all that the Father intends to be saved will eventually come to saving faith. But that fact has nothing to do with our status before God in our previous spirtually dead life.

We were - for a period of time at least - people who's sins Christ atoned for some 2000 years ago and yet were allienated from God because we had not exercised saving faith - regardless of what initiated that faith (such as irrestible grace).

Now - some may change that lost status (being without hope and without God) at a very early age; some at, say, 12 yrs of age; some at 30 and some on their death bed at 90 years old.

These teachings are completely Calvinistic I assure you as one who has been of that general persuation and taught Reformed theology for decades.

These teachings are also exactly what so called Arminians believe.

It strikes me highly presuptuous of limited atonement proponents to say that they know beyond shadow of doubt that a person who's sins have been atoned for by Christ at Calvary can be under God's judgment for 90 years and not a moment longer (say --- FOR ETERNITY?)

And yet that is the exact presumtuous leap of human logic which propells the limited atonement doctinal teaching.

I happen to believe that there is nothing at all in scripture which indicates that a person could not spend eternity in the same condition which all of us (Calvinists included) have been in for some time on this earth.

Namely -- Christ died for and made an atonement for my sins and yet I am not saved.

This is the lot in life of every person on earth.

Only by grace we were able to change that lot through faith.

But Calvinists should not hold their escaping that unfortunate and loathsome human condition as something other than pure grace.

We should thank God that His grace led us out of that conditon and into the Body of Christ.

Again -- that human conditon being that Christ atoned for our sins and yet we were without God and lost (the correct teaching of the scripture whether or not it ihappens to be also the teaching of those dreaded Arminians).

It is neither good logic nor indicated by our common human experience to say that if Christ died for ones sins then that person must be saved.

Granted that dropping limited atonement from TULIP seems unthinkable to some. But I happen to think it is worth coming up with another word if it means putting forth scripurally accurate and not carnally presumptuous teaching.
 
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Don't you think that His doing the will of the Father (namely suffering for the sins of the world and not loosing any whom the Father gives to Him and draws to Him) was satisfying to His soul?

While your conclusion concerning the elect is correct in my estimation - it would not be logically necessary to say that He did not therefore die also for the non-elect IMO.

You ask: "Don't you think that His doing the will of the Father (namely suffering for the sins of the world and not loosing any whom the Father gives to Him and draws to Him) was satisfying to His soul?"

YES, precisely because all of whom He died for He shall LOSE NONE. Christ's satisfaction lies in the result. Of those He died for He shall LOSE NONE. NOT those He died for, some accepted and some did not and therefore lost a few.

I certainly understand the question. My thought process lies in the value of the blood of Christ. Remember, Jesus Christ was GOD in the flesh. He had all power to end all His suffering. If He chose too, He could have called legions of angels and burned up the whole planet and everything in it. Instead, He humbled Himself, willingly, and suffered THE most horrible death by anyone ever, specifically because He was sinless and perfect AND because He had the power to stop it all at any time.

Now, His blood was voluntarily spilt to redeem a people, to literally buy them back. We are talking the most precious, and eternally valuable thing EVER! The blood of Christ! Given the value of His own blood, how, HOW on earth could He buy back an individual by name who was known by the Father before the world began and then finally end up losing that individual in hell forever? That simply cannot be. The calling and election of God is effectual. If I had to place all my trust, all my faith, all my being in ONE thing, it is the effectiveness, the absolutely perfect efficacy of the blood of Christ.....and I do.
 
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