Limitations Imposed by Jesus' Humanity

[miknik5]

One question. Why did John acknowledge Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world before Christ is baptized?

You are claiming that the Holy Spirit came upon Him only after He was baptized

But that, if you had read clearly is really NOT what Gods word says

For if it was after HE was baptized there would have been No Need for John to have deterred from baptizing Him saying it is you who needs to baptize me and how do you come to me to be baptized

That visible sign of the Holy Spirit was fore spoken to John so that he would know The One who was coming after him who was
Before him

God had sent John to baptize with water telling him already they the One on whom you see the Holy Spirit lit and remain is HE who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And John knew before he baptized Christ that this was the One whom the Father had spoken of

 

[miknik5]

what does it mean that this is HE who came not by water only?

 

[Deadworm]

miknik: "You are claiming that the Holy Spirit came upon Him only after He was baptized. But that, if you had read clearly is really NOT what Gods word says."

On the contrary, the Spirit descends to anoint Jesus only after He emerges from te baptismal waters! Academic commentaries recognize that the heavenly voice acclaims Jesus in the messianic words of Psalm 2:7: "You are my Son. Today I have begotten you." Recognizing the partial allusion to Psalm to 2:7 here, Luke places Jesus' birth genealogy right after the heavenly voice's acclamation (3:23-39)! Psalm 2:7 is quoted in full and applied to Jesus in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5. Many early NT manuscripts of Luke 3:22 have the heavenly voice quote Psalm 2:7 in full.

Miknik: "What does it mean that this is HE who came not by water only?"

Of course, you are referring to 1 John 5:6: Jesus' coming by blood refers to His crucifixion and His coming by water refers to His baptism in the sense that in a spiritual sense He was birthed or begotten for His mission by the Spirit at His baptism (hence the phrase, "The Spirit is the one who testifies.").

Miknik: "One question. Why did John acknowledge Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world before Christ is baptized?...What does it mean that this is HE who came not by water only? For if it was after HE was baptized there would have been No Need for John to have deterred from baptizing Him saying it is you who needs to baptize me and how do you come to me to be baptized>"

You are forgetting the obvious fact that John is prophesying about Jesus' future messianic role, a role that Jesus only assumes after His baptism and anointing by the Spirit. John's vision of Jesus future explains why John feels unworthy to baptize Him.

Always remember (1) that there is no evidence that Jesus had any supernatural abilities prior to His baptism and (2) that His family has grown up with a Jesus so ordinary that they are disillusioned about later claims about His messianic mission and miracles/

 

[miknik5]

[QUOTE="miknik]

The HOLY SPIRIT did not come upon CHRIST after HE was water baptized by JOHN...CHRIST came forth from THE FATHER and into the WORLD...it was then that the SPIRIT was given HIM without measure...but, to be made manifest to the world, John was told the ONE on whom you see the SPIRIT fall and remain is the ONE who will baptize with the HOLY SPIRIT and fire

On the contrary, the Spirit descends to anoint Jesus only after He emerges from te baptismal waters!

Ok...Whose SPIRIT was in CHRIST'S precrucified pre baptized BODY?

Academic commentaries recognize that the heavenly voice acclaims Jesus in the messianic words of Psalm 2:7: "You are my Son. Today I have begotten you." Recognizing the partial allusion to Psalm to 2:7 here, Luke places Jesus' birth genealogy right after the heavenly voice's acclamation (3:23-39)! Psalm 2:7 is quoted in full and applied to Jesus in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5. Many early NT manuscripts of Luke 3:22 have the heavenly voice quote Psalm 2:7 in full.

What do they do about the THEOPHANY of HIS GLORY on the Mt. of TRANSFIGURATION? Because then also the voice was heard saying this is my SON in whom I am well pleased, hear HIM...

Of course, you are referring to 1 John 5:6: Jesus' coming by blood refers to His crucifixion and His coming by water refers to His baptism in the sense that in a spiritual sense He was birthed or begotten for His mission by the Spirit at His baptism (hence the phrase, "The Spirit is the one who testifies.").[/quote]

Nope...that doesn't work because directly after 1John 5:6 we have the following verses:
This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life....which not many "scholars" want to accept...

Miknik: "One question. Why did John acknowledge Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world before Christ is baptized?...What does it mean that this is HE who came not by water only? For if it was after HE was baptized there would have been No Need for John to have deterred from baptizing Him saying it is you who needs to baptize me and how do you come to me to be baptized>"

You are forgetting the obvious fact that John is prophesying about Jesus' future messianic role, a role that Jesus only assumes after His baptism and anointing by the Spirit. John's vision of Jesus future explains why John feels unworthy to baptize Him.

John came as a voice heralding the ONE who was coming after him who, he already testified to WAS BEFORE HIM...

Always remember (1) that there is no evidence th[at Jesus had any supernatural abilities prior to His baptism and

Always remember there is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT in HEAVEN...and when CHRIST gave HIS DIALOGUE to HIS DISCIPLES HE would send another comforter who would be with them forever, even the SPIRIT of TRUTH whom HE would send from THE FATHER/whom THE FATHER would send in HIS NAME...CHRIST said, I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you...so who is with us?

(2) that His family has grown up with a Jesus so ordinary that they are disillusioned about later claims about His messianic mission and miracles//QUOTE]
Always remember HIS brothers wanted HIM to show HIMSELF to the world, and HE said, for you anytime is right...

 

[Deadworm]

Yep.

Of course, your simplistic flat denial counts for nothing because it fails to address the reasoned case presented that reflects not my own views, but the views of academic commentaries. Thus, you illustrate the reason why I started the thread on the problem of closed-minded evangelicals.

 

[miknik5]

miknik: "You are claiming that the Holy Spirit came upon Him only after He was baptized. But that, if you had read clearly is really NOT what Gods word says.

Actually sir...YOU are claiming the above...I am claiming that John knew it was the LAMB of GOD BEFORE he even baptized HIM...

John knew before he baptized that this was the ONE whom THE FATHER had told him would baptize with the HOLY SPIRIT...even as John testified I saw the SPIRIT fall and remain on HIM, he also testified that the ONE who sent me to baptize with water told me that the ONE on whom you see the HOLY SPIRIT fall and remain is HE who will baptize with the HOLY SPIRIT and with fire and John recognized HIM. Before he baptized HIM


Matthew 3:13
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

Why would John tell Jesus that he needed to be baptized by HIM when he was specifically sent by GOD to baptize with water to prepare the hearts of the people for the ONE who was coming...and here is Jesus who prior to him being baptized John waiting for John to coming to be baptized and John simply and clearly says again PRIOR to being persuaded by Christ to baptize to fulfill all the righteousness of The Law why are you looking to be baptized by me, YOU are the ONE who should be baptizing me.

He said this BEFORE he baptized JESUS...

15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

On the contrary, the Spirit descends to anoint Jesus only after He emerges from te baptismal waters! Academic commentaries recognize that the heavenly voice acclaims Jesus in the messianic words of Psalm 2:7: "You are my Son. Today I have begotten you." Recognizing the partial allusion to Psalm to 2:7 here, Luke places Jesus' birth genealogy right after the heavenly voice's acclamation (3:23-39)! Psalm 2:7 is quoted in full and applied to Jesus in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5. Many early NT manuscripts of Luke 3:22 have the heavenly voice quote Psalm 2:7 in full.

. Why is it written that The Spirit was given Him without measure?

Miknik: "What does it mean that this is HE who came not by water only?"

Of course, you are referring to 1 John 5:6: Jesus' coming by blood refers to His crucifixion and His coming by water refers to His baptism in the sense that in a spiritual sense He was birthed or begotten for His mission by the Spirit at His baptism (hence the phrase, "The Spirit is the one who testifies.").

Ahh...please explain what other way a man could enter into the world but by water and blood? And if it is noted this is HE who came not by water only (LIVING WATER) .then it needs to be noted...just as the WORD of GOD which states, and the WORD was made flesh and dwelt amongst us also needs to be noted . As well anyone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God

For what other way would a man if he were but just a man come into the world but by water AND blood??????

Miknik: "One question. Why did John acknowledge Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world before Christ is baptized?...What does it mean that this is HE who came not by water only? For if it was after HE was baptized there would have been No Need for John to have deterred from baptizing Him saying it is you who needs to baptize me and how do you come to me to be baptized>"

You are forgetting the obvious fact that John is prophesying about Jesus' future messianic role, a role that Jesus only assumes after His baptism and anointing by the Spirit. John's vision of Jesus future explains why John feels unworthy to baptize Him.

John clearly testified of the BRIDEGROOM...that is the ONE who comes from above speaks of what HE has seen and no man receives HIS TESTIMONY...John heard the voice of THE BRIDEGROOM and knew HIM to be THE BRIDEGROOM (John 3)

To this (that there were those who were baptizing in JESUS' NAME ALREADY) John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven.28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.”h

31The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for Godi gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.


Always remember (1) that there is no evidence that Jesus had any supernatural abilities prior to His baptism and (2) that His family has grown up with a Jesus so ordinary that they are disillusioned about later claims about His messianic mission and miracles/

 

[miknik5]

Remember any time was good for his brothers who asked HIM to show HIMSELF to the world...

 

[miknik5]

One question. Why did John acknowledge Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world before Christ is baptized?

You are claiming that the Holy Spirit came upon Him only after He was baptized

But that, if you had read clearly is really NOT what Gods word says

For if it was after HE was baptized there would have been No Need for John to have deterred from baptizing Him saying it is you who needs to baptize me and how do you come to me to be baptized

That visible sign of the Holy Spirit was fore spoken to John so that he would know The One who was coming after him who was
Before him

God had sent John to baptize with water telling him already that the One on whom you see the Holy Spirit fall and remain is HE who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And John knew before he baptized Christ that this was the One whom the Father had spoken of

Okay...I understand now that you do not know how to use the quote function...

 

[miknik5]

Yep.

Of course, your simplistic flat denial counts for nothing because it fails to address the reasoned case presented that reflects not my own views, but the views of academic commentaries. Thus, you illustrate the reason why I started the thread on the problem of closed-minded evangelicals.

I want to know how many HOLY SPIRITS are in Heaven.

Thank you...

 

[miknik5]

Yep.

Of course, your simplistic flat denial counts for nothing because it fails to address the reasoned case presented that reflects not my own views, but the views of academic commentaries. Thus, you illustrate the reason why I started the thread on the problem of closed-minded evangelicals.

What did you think was Johns close minded work?

Do you think Johns testimony was accurate. More so than "academic commentaries"

 

[miknik5]

I have another question.

What did Christ mean when He said:
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: AGAIN, I leave the world, and go to The Father

 

[ewq1938]

I have another question.

What did Christ mean when He said:
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: AGAIN, I leave the world, and go to The Father

Because it was the second time he spoke of going to the Father:

Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

 

[miknik5]

And what is the word which has made us clean?
But that we have truly believed that HE came forth from GOD

 

[Deadworm]

Miknik, if you are going to debate someone, at least read their thread to see what they have to say. Before Jesus was incarnated, He was "the Logos," the rational self-expression of God. "He emptied Himself (Philippians 2:6)" of all His divine prerogatives to become fully human. For that reason, He was limited in knowledge, wisdom, and power (Luke 2:52; Mark 6:5; 13:32: Hebrews 5:7-8), had to be "tested in every way just as we are (Hebrews 4:15)," and needed the Holy Spirit's anointing at His baptism to recover His divine power and access to divine revelation. That experience was a kind of rebirth for Jesus. To express this, the heavenly voice quotes Psalm 2:7 ("You are my Son. Today have I begotten you") and applies it to Jesus' reception of the Spirit at His baptism. Only then are we told that the Holy Spirit directed Him (Mark 1:12). His family saw his ordinariness on a daily basis prior to His receiving the Spirit, saw no miracles, nothing out of the ordinary, and so, they thought His alleged miracles and messianic claims after He was baptized and received the Spirit were false (John 7:6; Mark 6:4) and that He was "out of His mind (Mark 3:21)."

 

[miknik5]

The Holy One to be born was declared Holy prior to coming forth and into the world

Why did Simeon say: dismiss your servant for my eyes have seen your salvation

Elizabeth recognized Mary as the mother of. her Lord.
The baby John in her womb recognized Him as well

The word made flesh means exactly that...God covered over His Glory and came in our likeness so that we might be covered in His Glory and made into His likeness

That Theophany of His Glory (the transfiguration) attested to the Truth that God did not compromise His Glory. He simply covered His Glory.

For had God come to us uncovered and in His full and Holy Glory....ALL would have perished

And the Word was made flesh and "dwelt" amongst us

Even the word "dwelt" implies something like it's kind but somehow unique

 

[miknik5]

And revelation 12? That child who came forth into the world was IMMEDIATELY snatched up to God and HIS THRONE....from the beginning

 

[miknik5]

Miknik, if you are going to debate someone, at least read their thread to see what they have to say. Before Jesus was incarnated, He was "the Logos," the rational self-expression of God. "He emptied Himself (Philippians 2:6)" of all His divine prerogatives to become fully human. For that reason, He was limited in knowledge, wisdom, and power (Luke 2:52; Mark 6:5; 13:32: Hebrews 5:7-8), had to be "tested in every way just as we are (Hebrews 4:15)," and needed the Holy Spirit's anointing at His baptism to recover His divine power and access to divine revelation. That experience was a kind of rebirth for Jesus. To express this, the heavenly voice quotes Psalm 2:7 ("You are my Son. Today have I begotten you") and applies it to Jesus' reception of the Spirit at His baptism. Only then are we told that the Holy Spirit directed Him (Mark 1:12). His family saw his ordinariness on a daily basis prior to His receiving the Spirit, saw no miracles, nothing out of the ordinary, and so, they thought His alleged miracles and messianic claims after He was baptized and received the Spirit were false (John 7:6; Mark 6:4) and that He was "out of His mind (Mark 3:21)."










spi










spirit's

He already explained. A prophet is without honor in his hometown. And as to His Mother being converted because of James' testimony?

Please provide those scriptures
Thanks

 

[miknik5]

Another question

Who was David prophesying of one he said:
He will not allow His Holy One to see decay. Nor will HE abandon my soul to the grave?

 

[DPMartin]

(1) Jesus is supposed to be our example. But how legitimate an example is He? Did He embrace all our limitations: our need for a learning curve, our need to learn by trial and error, our need to repent and learn to obey God, our need to find favor with God? If not, don't His divine advantages refute the legitimacy of His role as our example?

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, in human flesh, but just flesh. but human nature, and God's nature in the flesh are two completely different entities. the flesh may be the same, but what dwells within are not.

Jesus as an example is an assumption, and a stumbling block for those who would believe that, by using their nature to be like Christ. And is not really supported by scripture. Jesus is not an example, what is supported by scripture is Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, hence the Life we should have that is God the Father’s will for us, that Adam and Eve had before they died from it, that Jesus restored to us, by giving the Life He has. and those who have received that Life that is of Christ, will do as He does and the things He does, the Apostles were able because they have the Life to do it that is of God, and is God the Father's nature. Not the human nature we have in the flesh. God already knows that human nature cannot be like Christ, that was proved out for our sakes and knowledge in Noah’s day. Human nature doesn’t have the life it takes to be like Christ, no more than a mouse has the life it takes to be like a man. There is no comparison to the Life that is of God, and the life of dust to dust and ashes to ashes, that we are born into in this world.

 

[Deadworm]

I note that posters have no answer to post #34. Jesus was God incarnate, but the expression "FULLY divine" does not accurately reflect the reality of His incarnation.

DPMartin: "Jesus as an example is an assumption, and a stumbling block for those who would believe that, by using their nature to be like Christ. And is not really supported by scripture. Jesus is not an example."

1 Peter 2:21-23: "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you AN EXAMPLE for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously."

Philippians 2:5: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus..."

Indeed, the very concept of discipleship to a Jewish rabbi implies a willingness to follow his example:
John 13:15: "I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you."
"John 13:34-45: "Love one another in the same way that I have loved you...By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples."