Limitations Imposed by Jesus' Humanity

[Deadworm]

Most Christians, like myself, affirm that the historical Jesus was God incarnate. But they have rarely thought through what they mean, or should mean, by affirming Jesus as fully human. This thread is intended to help us do just that. In any good seminary, these 5 questions serve as foundational for study of the historical Jesus. Many Bible students freeze like Bambi in the headlights, when confronted with the merits of each question. How would you answer them? I will respond.

(1) Jesus is supposed to be our example. But how legitimate an example is He? Did He embrace all our limitations: our need for a learning curve, our need to learn by trial and error, our need to repent and learn to obey God, our need to find favor with God? If not, don't His divine advantages refute the legitimacy of His role as our example?

(2) The Philippian hymn (2:6-11) says that, "though He was of the same essential substance as God,...He emptied Himself." Emptied Himself of what? His full divinity? His divine prerogatives? How would Jesus have responded if you asked Him if He was "God?" If He was "good?"

(3) Why were the people who knew Him best disillusioned with His ministry and claims for most of His life after His baptism? How does their skepticism arise from their observation of His childhood and His life as a carpenter?

(4) Why does He feel the need to receive John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins? Why does He need to be anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He can begin His ministry of healing and miracles? Why wasn't His "divine nature" already sufficient to provide His miraculous abilities?

(5) At times, He seems plagued with doubts and, in Gethsemane, He even asks God to abort His mission--before He ultimately submits to God's will. Just how limited is His knowledge? Is He so limited that He is sometimes terrified by His uncertain future?
How different is the earthly Jesus' knowledge from ours? And if He knows vastly more than we do, how then is He a genuine example for us, an example who has no unfair advantage over us?

 

[Deadworm]

(1) Gospels fit the literary genre of biographies of revered figures and the story in Luke 2:41-52 is a typical story of a boy's future promise shown at a young age. The Jewish historian Josephus tells a similar story about the future promise he displayed as a 12-year-old. That said, I hastily add that Jesus' allusion to God as "my Father" is not unprecedented for His day and does not in itself imply Jesus' status as the unique Son of God. For example, in the generation for Jesus' time, the Galilean charismatic, Honi the Circe Drawer, also prays to God as His Father.

(a) That aside, a 12-year-old Jesus seems to show disrespect to His parents. He leaves His family entourage without asking their permission, not even informing them of where He is going and why. Thus, He inconveniences them by forcing them to embark on an anxious 3-day search to track Him down and make sure He hasn't fallen prey to some sort of crime.

(b) His angry mother rightly scolds Him for His inconsiderateness: "Child, why have you treated us like this? 'Your father and I have been searching for you with great anxiety." Jesus doesn't even apologize; instead, He impolitely counters: "Why were you searching for me? Don't you know I must be in my Father's house?" Jesus should have realized that any mother would be highly distraught if her 12-year-old child went inexplicably AWOL in a large and dangerous big city.

(c) Luke offers his perspective on this unfortunate incident and assures us that thereafter Jesus became obedient to them. Luke mulls over this display of boyhood immaturity and puts it in a positive light: "And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor (52)." Notice carefully (a) that the phrase "increased in wisdom" implies a prior phase in which Jesus displayed a lack of wisdom and (b) that the phrase "increased...in divine favor" implies a prior period is which Jesus was less in divine favor. I'm not claiming that Jesus sinned in this instance. There is a difference between sin that separates us from God and a young boy's mistakes that illustrate a learning curve by trial and error. What it means for Jesus to be fully human is eloquently on display in this story.

 

[Deadworm]

2. Luke 2:52 implies that Jesus' maturation process is a process of learning by trial and error just as it is for the rest of us. His family witnesses His maturation process and the rather ordinary character of His life prior to His baptism. So they react with hostile skepticism to His later lofty claims about Himself and God's kingdom:

a. "But when His family heard it, they went out to physically restrain (Greek: "krateo") Him; for they said He was out of His mind (Mark 3:21)."

This text describes how Jesus' family reacts to His failure to allow a lunch break in the midst of His lengthy teaching sessions. Few verses have been more victimized to politically correct mistranslations than this 3:21. Some translations change they said" to "people said" to eliminate the correct but offensive impressive that it was His family, and not outsiders, who thought He was insane. In fact, the Greek word for people is absent from the text! Other translations water down "physically restrain" to read "take charge of" to make His confrontation with His family more mild.

"b. Then His mother and brothers came and, standing outside, they sent to Him and called Him. A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him: "Your mother and brothers are outside, asking for you." And He replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers? And looking at those who sat around Him, He said: "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother (Mark 3:31-35).

On the surface, Jesus is making the point that His spiritual family is more important to Him than His physical family. But in a context in which His family has just tried to physically restrain Him for His insane conduct, Jesus point expresses a veiled disappointment in His biological family. His disappointment in them is explicitly expressed in Mark 6:4:

"Then Jesus said to them, "Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house."
In his hometown, Nazareth, Jesus complains about the lack of respect He receives from His own relatives and indeed from His siblings and (apparently) His mother!

c. "For His own brothers did not believe in Him (John 7:5)."

John makes it that the family disrespect experienced by Jesus is fueled by the fact that they simply don't believe in His claims and His teaching. Unlike myself, some scholars view their skepticism as proof that His virgin birth is a myth. I prefer to think that Mary tried to minimize sibling rivalry by treating Jesus' birth in a low key way.

 

[Deadworm]

(3) Even skeptical scholars acknowledge that John's baptism of Jesus is the most certain fact of Jesus' ministry. It creates the embarrassing problem of an allegedly sinless Messiah seeking a baptism of repentance--something that would hardly be invented.

(a) Of our 4 Gospels, only Matthew addresses this scandal: "John would have prevented Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus replied to him: "Let it be so now; for thus it is proper for us to fulfill all righteousness (3:13-14)."" Many scholars dismiss this as a later rationalization invented to eliminate the scandal. But it doesn't really accomplish that goal. True, it implies Jesus' superiority to John, but it still implies Jesus' belief that receiving John's baptism of repentance fulfills righteousness, i. e., makes Jesus righteous. In this way, Jesus seems to concede that, like everyone else, He has matured through a process of trail and error, and thus needs to repent in the sense of renewing His mind and changing His direction. Jesus' baptism need not imply that Jesus sinned in a way that separated Him from God.

(b) The Gospel of the Hebrews is now only preserved in several quoted fragments. It was written around 100 AD and, like Matthew, feels the need to confront the scandal of a sinless Messiah seeking a baptism of repentance: "The mother of the Lord and His brothers said to Him: "John the Baptist baptizes for the forgiveness of sins. Let's go and be baptized by him." Jesus replied to them: "In what way have I sinned that I should be baptized by him--unless perhaps what I have just said is a sin of ignorance (Ephiphanius, Panarion 30.13.7-8)?" Jesus jokingly acknowledges that He might be susceptible to sins of ignorance.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Deadworm.

(1) Jesus is supposed to be our example. But how legitimate an example is He? Did He embrace all our
limitations: our need for a learning curve, our need to learn by trial and error, our need to repent and learn to obey
God, our need to find favor with God? If not, don't His divine advantages refute the legitimacy of His role as our example?

The primary mission of Jesus was the reconciliation of mankind to God, we cannot emulate this fundamental objective
of the life of the Christ. Our repetitive repentance and obedience cycles are one continuous inner struggle, an unresolved
conflict. This inner conflict is designed to to humble us into a complete submission to the eternal will of the Almighty.
The Christ alone was victorious, thus we live and rely on His victory, we have no victory in ourselves.

(2) The Philippian hymn (2:6-11) says that, "though He was of the same essential substance as God,...He emptied Himself." Emptied Himself of what? His full divinity? His divine prerogatives? How would Jesus have responded if you asked Him if He was "God?" If He was "good?"

Jesus was the Logos with a human appearance, Jesus surrendered His divine glory to become one of us.

We know without any doubt that Jesus was divine, simply from the observational evidence. Jesus was worshiped as God
on eight different occassions, and never once did Jesus object to this worship. One could accept that Jesus may have been
worshiped once and have ignored this ignorant blasphemy. But Jesus was worshiped far too often, for Jesus not to have
responded sharply in each and every case, if He was not God Himself in human form.

(3) Why were the people who knew Him best disillusioned with His ministry and claims for most of His life after
His baptism? How does their skepticism arise from their observation of His childhood and His life as a carpenter?

We do not understand ourselves and we certainly cannot predict what someone else may do in any given circumstances.
The ministry of Jesus was a supernatural ministry of unlimited scope, I am not suprised that the folk that thought
they knew the carpenter were in turmoil. When God humbles Himself, that is a perfect act of humility and no one
will see through it. This narration is exactly the narration one would expect, remember when God humbles Himself
no one will see through His earthly identity.

(4) Why does He feel the need to receive John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins? Why does He need to be anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He can begin His ministry of healing and miracles? Why wasn't His "divine nature" already sufficient to provide His miraculous abilities?

Jesus was baptized with a baptism of repentance, yet Jesus did not need to repent of anything. Hence the baptism by John
was not necessary, and this was performed by Jesus purely as an example for us.

When Jesus stopped the storm with a command, the apostles were terrified of Him and rightly so. This ability to control
the forces within the universe are God's alone, this ability is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus never needed a baptism
in the Holy Spirit, as Jesus was always everything that the Holy Spirit was.

(5) At times, He seems plagued with doubts and, in Gethsemane, He even asks God to abort His mission--before He
ultimately submits to God's will. Just how limited is His knowledge? Is He so limited that He is sometimes terrified by
His uncertain future? How different is the earthly Jesus' knowledge from ours? And if He knows vastly more than we do,
how then is He a genuine example for us, an example who has no unfair advantage over us?

Jesus cannot doubt His own identity, Jesus can doubt whether humanity is really worth redeeming. In divine love, Jesus
was compelled to act on our behalf, though the cost to Himself was immense. It is not surprising to see Jesus struggling
to implement this final act. The submission of the Christ to an underserved death in order to give life to the underserving.

This final act of the messiah was love pushed to it's fullest and to an incomprehensible magnitude, love in place of a judgement, a judgement that was long over due.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh, Judgment is still , not gone.
Most all the world refuses to stop worshiping (serving) demons.
So they die once, and then the Judgment. Then POOF! they are tossed in the lake of fire that was made for the devil and demons, not for men.

It's not overdue - the timing is PERFECT, as God is PERFECT and COMPLETE, and PLANNED everything perfectly, before even the world was created.

The miracle is SALVATION - SURPRISE ! in JESUS. no one deserves it. we are thankful for it forever.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God's answer is clear. Being considerate is a human feeling/ emotion/ quality.
God is not considerate of humans.
He is no respecter of human beings.
Human beings have nothing to offer God. (even if they did, He wouldn't be considerate of them).

Jesus was not sinful , and even if Jesus was inconsiderate, He didn't sin.
There's no sin in being inconsiderate , especially WHILE OBEYING GOD THE FATHER.

Remember GOD'S INSTRUCTIONS: (somewhere) ".... along the way, DO NOT STOP TALK TO ANYONE, DO NOT EVEN GREET THEM (not family, not friends, no one) ..."

And, "PUT OUT the evil one from your midst. Do not greet them, do not try to be their friend, do not have a meal with them...."

And, "Whoever is a friend of the world (or tries to think the was of satan) cannot be a friend of God."
"Whoever loves anything of the world (or of the flesh?) cannot be a friend of God"....
and so on and so on...

 

[Job8]

Jesus is supposed to be our example. But how legitimate an example is He?

Since the Holy Spirit is given to each one who believes, and the power of God resides in the Holy Spirit, then Jesus is a perfectly legitimate example, since He too was filled with the Holy Ghost at all times.

How would Jesus have responded if you asked Him if He was "God?" If He was "good?"

If He is "good", then He must be God, and He did claim to be God several times. Christ set aside His glory and majesty to take human form, but He certainly did not (and could not) abandon His full Deity.

Why were the people who knew Him best disillusioned with His ministry and claims for most of His life after His baptism?

Because they hardened their hearts against the truth about themselves and about Christ.

Why does He feel the need to receive John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins?

"To fulfil all righteousness". As a Man, Christ gave all men an example, that they too should be baptized.

At times, He seems plagued with doubts and, in Gethsemane, He even asks God to abort His mission--before He ultimately submits to God's will. Just how limited is His knowledge?

"Plagued with doubts" is utter nonsense. His humanity shrank from the agony of the Cross, but Christ knew from before the foundation of the world that He would be the Lamb of God, and that He would also rise again the third day.

 

[Deadworm]

Job: Since the Holy Spirit is given to each one who believes, and the power of God resides in the Holy Spirit, then Jesus is a perfectly legitimate example, since He too was filled with the Holy Ghost at all times.

You miss the point: Christians still sin because the Holy Spirit's work does not include preventing us from experiencing our selfish inclinations, inclinations that the NT implies Jesus shared by virtue of His humanity.

Job: If He is "good", then He must be God,

Refuted by Mark 10:17-18! Please read and actually respond to my discussion there. Jesus implicitly denies that He is good.

Job: ...and He did claim to be God several times.

Name one! Surely you don't mean His self-references as "Son of God." In itself, that is a standard phrase to describe a merely human Davidic Messiah based on 2 Samuel 7:14. I guess you've never read a scholarly book on NT Christology.

Job: Christ set aside His glory and majesty to take human form, but He certainly did not (and could not) abandon His full Deity.

Again, you need to read more carefully: In the Greek the text of Phil. 2:6 literally reads: "Though He was of the same essential substance as God, He did not deem equality with God something to cling to, but emptied Himself..."

Emptied Himself of what? Of His divine prerogatives, of course! The Greek tells us that the result of His self-emptying was that He was no longer equal with God. Hence, Jesus can say, "The Father is greater than I (John 14:28)." When Jesus says, "the Father and I are one" (10:29), He is referring to a mystical unity, not to His unique divinity. In the context, Jesus defends His claims about Himself by quoting a psalm that implies we are all gods (10:34-35).

Job: Because they (His family members) hardened their hearts against the truth about themselves and about Christ.

***Now you're inserting something that the Word of God doesn't say. Even then, you overlook the reason why they might have "hardened" their hearts to their family member, Jesus, to whom they were exposed on a daily basis as He grew up. They saw a young man who seemed just as human as they were, who learned by trial and error like every human, and who performed no miracles, not even to save Joseph's life! Thus, Joseph figures in no story of the adult Jesus' life! You really need to meditate on the question of why so many family members that Jesus was mad!

You haven't reflected on the question of why Jesus could perform no miracles until He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Why did He need the Holy Spirit? Why wasn't His status as God incarnate sufficient to give Him miraculous capabilities? Obviously, because, as I've shown, He "emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives and took on all our human limitations. Your Christ is a cardboard cartoon, far removed from the flawed humanity He embraced by assuming all our limitations, so that He could be "tested in all the ways we are (Hebrews 4:15)."

Job: "To fulfil all righteousness". As a Man, Christ gave all men an example, that they too should be baptized.

Again, that's not what Matthew says: I remind you that John's baptism was a baptism of repentance and Jesus' baptism fulfills "righteousness" because His baptism demonstrates His repentance! No mention of setting any example! And if He were doing so, it would be because He's doing the right thing to show His repentance! That's what most scholars think.

Job: "Plagued with doubts" is utter nonsense. His humanity shrank from the agony of the Cross,
You overlook Luke 4:1: "When the Devil had finished every test, he departed from Him, UNTIL AN OPPORTUNE TIME." The implication is that He was tempted and tested throughout His ministry, including with doubts! When Peter insists that he won't permit Jesus to be crucified, Jesus does not replh, "Get lost, Peter!" He replies, "Get behind me, Satan (Mark 8:33)!" Why? Because Satan is the tempter, and Jesus is already tempted to seek another way to fulfill His mission.
don't forget that in Gethsemane, before Jesus submits to God's will, He issues a plea, "remove this cup from me (Mark 14:36)!" And after Gethsemane on the cross He quotes Psalm 22:1 to express His ongoing doubts and feeling of abandonment: "My God,, my God, why have you forsaken me (Mark 15:34)?"

 

[Deadworm]

THE LIMITATIONS IMPOSED ON JESUS' KNOWLEDGE:
The ground covered by this thread is indispensable for efforts to grasp the Trinity.

(1) "And just as He was coming out of the water, He saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove on Him. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, the Beloved; with You I am well pleased (Mark 1:10-11)."

(a) Notice the implication that only Jesus saw the vision ("He saw"). Thus, the heavenly voice addressed Him and not the crowed ("You are)," revealing to Him something He now needed to know--His identity as God's Son. His inconsiderate comment to his distraught mother does not refute this claim: "Didn't you know I must be in my Father's house?" In Jesus' day, other pious Jews referred to God as their Father without implying a unique personal status.
(b) Mark is one of Matthew's sources and Matthew redacts "You are my Son" to instead read "This is my Son" (3:17), so that the heavenly voice is addressed to the world, not just to Jesus.
(c) The heavenly voice is not acclaiming Jesus as divine. He is quoting the Davidic Psalm (2:7). "Son of God" was the title for the expected Davidic Messiah, based on 2 Samuel 7:14. So we can and need to establish Christ's divinity on other grounds.

(2) "And the Spirit immediately drove (Greek: ekballo) Him out into the wilderness. He was in the wilderness 40 days, tested by Satan (Mark 4:11-12)."

In Matthew and Luke's ! source, "drove" is replaced by the vaguer and milder "led." But Mark preserves the shocking original. The verb "ekballo" ("drove" or "cast out") is a violent verb, the same verb translated "cast out" for Jesus' exorcisms! Jesus was still in the trance of His heavenly vision and didn't want to spend a long time in the barren desert! So the Spirit had to overcome His reluctant resistance! His ignorance of the tests that lay in store for Him there further illustrates His ignorance.

(3) Jesus' ignorance of His future and His ability to cope with that future often afflicts Him with great anxiety: "In the days of His flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who was able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7)."

This text focuses on His ministry in general and not just His Gethsemane ordeal. His "loud cries and tears" demonstrate His uncertainty, His lack of self-confidence to face the troubles ahead. even His fear of failure. Thus, His emotional outbursts illustrate just one way He "was tested in every way just as we are (4:15)." Notice carefully that God heard His emotional cries, not because He was the Son of God, but "because of His reverent submission!" In other words, He had to prove Himself faithful just like we do, and theoretically He might have failed. The fact that He might have failed, but did not is what makes Him a godly example for us.

(4) Jesus "grew in wisdom," implying that He had previously been somewhat deficient in wisdom (Luke 2:52). For example, Jesus wrongly believes that the mustard seed is "the smallest seed (Matthew 13:32). But His misconception is commonly shared at the time; so it doesn't affect the parable's spiritual point. In my view, Jesus knew no more science than His contemporaries. However, He does gain divine revelation from His Father and prophetic knowledge of certain people's hearts (Like Judas Iscariot).

(5) Jesus does not know when His Second Coming will occur (Mark 13:32).

 

[miknik5]

CHRIST came into the world, in our covering (that is, the likeness of flesh) not only to "SHOW US THE FATHER"...but to model for man the EXACT relationship a son of GOD is supposed to have with HIS FATHER in Heaven.

 

[miknik5]

HE actually refers to HIMSELF as the "GOOD SHEPHERD" which is in line to Ezekiel 34

 

[miknik5]

Most Christians, like myself, affirm that the historical Jesus was God incarnate. But they have rarely thought through what they mean, or should mean, by affirming Jesus as fully human. This thread is intended to help us do just that. In any good seminary, these 5 questions serve as foundational for study of the historical Jesus. Many Bible students freeze like Bambi in the headlights, when confronted with the merits of each question. How would you answer them? I will respond.

CHRIST is the visible image of the invisible GOD...GOD is a SPIRIT and a SPIRIT can not be made manifest apart from a visible vessel. CHRIST came to SHOW US THE FATHER.

(1) Jesus is supposed to be our example. But how legitimate an example is He? Did He embrace all our limitations: our need for a learning curve, our need to learn by trial and error, our need to repent and learn to obey God, our need to find favor with God? If not, don't His divine advantages refute the legitimacy of His role as our example?

HE became the SOURCE of OUR SALVATION which is sufficient for any man/woman's (who put their hopes in HIM) salvation...for HE is able to save COMPLETELY and intercede for all those who come to HIM through faith in HIS BLOOD...

(2) The Philippian hymn (2:6-11) says that, "though He was of the same essential substance as God,...He emptied Himself." Emptied Himself of what? His full divinity? His divine prerogatives? How would Jesus have responded if you asked Him if He was "God?" If He was "good?"

His DIVINE prerogatives. JESUS is the GRACE of GOD manifest...GRACE is withholding what is deserved and rather giving what is undeserved...unmerited...unearned...

(3) Why were the people who knew Him best disillusioned with His ministry and claims for most of His life after His baptism? How does their skepticism arise from their observation of His childhood and His life as a carpenter?

Exactly what is written by the people who knew HIM that isn't this Mary's son, don't we know his brothers? And as well, what CHRIST said with regards to a "prophet is without honor in HIS hometown"

(4) Why does He feel the need to receive John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins? Why does He need to be anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He can begin His ministry of healing and miracles? Why wasn't His "divine nature" already sufficient to provide His miraculous abilities?

HE had received the HOLY SPIRIT prior to HIS BAPTISM...that vision was for John and John saw the HOLY SPIRIT on CHRIST prior to HIS BAPTISM...

If he hadn't (John, that is) why would he have even said to Jesus PRIOR to baptizing HIM, you come to me to be baptized, but it is I who need to be baptized by you...

John received the sign from GOD, (as promised from GOD) that this indeed was the ONE who would baptize with the HOLY SPIRIT and Fire...and he, (John) confirmed this by saying the ONE who told me to baptize told me the ONE on whom you see the HS alit and remain is the ONE who will baptize with the HS and fire. John saw the HS on HIM before he baptized HIM.

But the vision was for us because, again, CHRIST not only came to "SHOW US THE FATHER" but to model the EXACT RELATIONSHIP that a son of GOD (and the process of that relationship) has with HIS FATHER who is in Heaven.

(5) At times, He seems plagued with doubts and, in Gethsemane, He even asks God to abort His mission--before He ultimately submits to God's will. Just how limited is His knowledge? Is He so limited that He is sometimes terrified by His uncertain future?
How different is the earthly Jesus' knowledge from ours? And if He knows vastly more than we do, how then is He a genuine example for us, an example who has no unfair advantage over us?

Because JESUS was Teaching us how to pray in all things just as stated, not only did HE come to SHOW us THE FATHER, but to model for us the EXACT RELATIONSHIP that we (the children of GOD) are supposed to have with HIS FATHER who is in HEAVEN.

Not my will, but YOUR WILL be done..

.

You might want to review Hebrews 5 with regards to an ETERNAL HIGH PRIEST before GOD who once made perfect (for the children who are flesh) HE has become the SOURCE of SALVATION for all those who obey HIM.

 

[ewq1938]

Most Christians, like myself, affirm that the historical Jesus was God incarnate.

Yet when Job said Jesus was God you argued and challenged that profusely. You don't appear to actually affirm Jesus was God incarnate in this thread. You challenge that in every post.

 

[ewq1938]

(2) that He considers Himself neither "good" nor "God."

See my above post.

 

[miknik5]

Actually HE considers Himself the Good Shephard

 

[Deadworm]

See my above post.

Yet when Job said Jesus was God you argued and challenged that profusely. You don't appear to actually affirm Jesus was God incarnate in this thread. You challenge that in every post.

Just the opposite. I'm trying to get Christians to discover the right biblical way to think of Jesus' divinity, His humanity, and His sinlessness. As it is, most Christians commit the heresy of turning the historical Jesus into a cardboard cartoon, a character who never needed to learn by trial and error, who was always clear about His mission and destiny--in short, a mockery to the claim that He is our fully human example and role model, sharing in all our human limitations.

Now ewq, set aside your pontifications for a moment and actually study and explain the text in question Mark--10:17-18; and then I will respond to your interpretation. But take the text as it is, and don't immediately jump to other texts to deflect attention away from its natural meaning.

My insights here are routinely shared by most seminary professors, but in dialogue with the laity, they evade the truth on the grounds that the laity are not ready for it. Evangelical bible scholars feel the need to conceal their true convictions about the Bible so as not to offend. I was once invited to apply for a teaching position at an evangelical seminary. When I declined, saying that I couldn't in good conscience fully agree to its Statement of Faith, the professor responded, "O c'mon, you believe in the spirit of the Statement. Apply anyway!" On this site, I'm trying an experiment: I'm sharing what I really believe in the hope of stimulating a more honest and in depth analysis of the relevant texts and the issues that matter most. I do believe in the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith. My quarrel is with how those doctrines are understood, explained, and justified.

 

[Geralt]

"truly" human NOT "fully" human. that is the confession.

- Jesus is our Lord, not just a template to imitate. Jesus is like us, but NOT like us. Jesus did not sin, therefore has no need of repentance.

- he humbled himself

- familiarity breeds contempt

- to fulfill all righteousness

- speculation. Jesus was never afraid nor uncertain.

- all is written in scripture. Jesus did not come to primarily be an example but to show us the Father and complete his mission.

Most Christians, like myself, affirm that the historical Jesus was God incarnate. But they have rarely thought through what they mean, or should mean, by affirming Jesus as fully human. This thread is intended to help us do just that. In any good seminary, these 5 questions serve as foundational for study of the historical Jesus. Many Bible students freeze like Bambi in the headlights, when confronted with the merits of each question. How would you answer them? I will respond.

(1) Jesus is supposed to be our example. But how legitimate an example is He? Did He embrace all our limitations: our need for a learning curve, our need to learn by trial and error, our need to repent and learn to obey God, our need to find favor with God? If not, don't His divine advantages refute the legitimacy of His role as our example?

(2) The Philippian hymn (2:6-11) says that, "though He was of the same essential substance as God,...He emptied Himself." Emptied Himself of what? His full divinity? His divine prerogatives? How would Jesus have responded if you asked Him if He was "God?" If He was "good?"

(3) Why were the people who knew Him best disillusioned with His ministry and claims for most of His life after His baptism? How does their skepticism arise from their observation of His childhood and His life as a carpenter?

(4) Why does He feel the need to receive John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins? Why does He need to be anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism before He can begin His ministry of healing and miracles? Why wasn't His "divine nature" already sufficient to provide His miraculous abilities?

(5) At times, He seems plagued with doubts and, in Gethsemane, He even asks God to abort His mission--before He ultimately submits to God's will. Just how limited is His knowledge? Is He so limited that He is sometimes terrified by His uncertain future?

(6) How different is the earthly Jesus' knowledge from ours? And if He knows vastly more than we do, how then is He a genuine example for us, an example who has no unfair advantage over us?

 

[Deadworm]

What was the original church understanding of how Jesus came to be legitimately called God incarnate? Well, Paul precedes our Gospels, and liturgical fragments (Rom. 1:3-4) and hymns (Phil. 2:6-11) quoted by Paul precede him. The earliest understanding of Christ's divinity helps us explain the great limitations imposed on Christ's power, knowledge, weakness, and need to learn by trial and error in Luke 2:41-52, Hebrews 4:15; 5:7-8, and many other places in the Gospels.

Consider these 5 texts attesting the earliest Christian view (a) that the jury was out on Jesus' messianic claims until God's vindication after Jesus' resurrection and (b) that Jesus had to overcome His totally human limitations and prove Himself faithful to His mission to the end:
(1) "...His Son who was a sperm (Greek: sperma) of David according to the flesh, and and was appointed to be Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead (Rom 1:3-4)."

(2) "Who, though He (Christ) was in the form of God (= God's mode of existence), did not regard equality with God something to be held on to (Greek: "harpagmos"), but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness (Phil. 2:6-7)."
Emptied Himself of what? The key is the hymn's parallel between "the form of God" (= God's mode of existence) and "the form of a slave." Christ empties Himself of God's mode of existence, that is, of all His divine prerogatives and powers to become a man, enslaved to the powers of evil (Gal. 4:3, 8f.; Rom. 8:21). Thus deprived, He becomes "a little lower than the angels Heb. 2:9), a condition that is reversed by His exaltation after His resurrection:

(3) "When He had made purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to the angels as the name He inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are my Son. Today have I begotten you (Hebrews 1:3-5, quoting Psalm 2:7)."
Jesus is birthed or begotten as God's Son by His exaltation after His crucifixion. It is during His exaltation that He receives the name "more excellent than theirs"--"Lord" the title of Lord" in the sense of "God."

(4) In the climax of the Philippian hymn (2:9-11), Jesus must similarly wait for His exaltation to rightly receive His name or status as "Lord" (= God):
"Therefore, God highly exalted Him and gave Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow...and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Greek: Kyrios: the Greek OT name for God)."

(5) The use of Psalm 2:7 in Hebrews 1:3-5 finds a nice parallel in Acts 13:32-33, which implies that Jesus is legitimately established as God's Son--is birthed or begotten as God's Son-- only by His resurrection:
Paul: "...what God promised our ancestors, He has fulfilled for us...by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the 2nd Psalm: "You are my Son; today I have begotten You."

 

[Deadworm]

Let me pull these insights together to give you a picture of how many evangelical and mainline seminary professors understand Christ's divinity.

(1) Why does His whole family reject His later claims and consider Him a madman (Mark 3:19-21,31-35; 6:4; John 7:6)?

This question can't be ducked by claiming that their hearts were simply hardened. The contrast between the sheer ordinariness of Jesus' childhood and life as a carpenter versus His miracles and Messianic claims after His baptismal reception of the Holy Spirit is too stark for the family to believe in Him. Thankfully, they all become believers through the testimony of Jesus' brother James to his private Easter appearance (1 Corinthians 15:7; cp. Acts 1:14). The apologetic value of James's Easter appearance cannot be overestimated.

(2) Why was Jesus apparently unable to perform any miracles (including the prevention of His Step-Dad Joseph's premature death), until He received the Holy Spirit's anointing at His baptism?

Because in His flesh, He was not "fully God" as the creeds declare. He preexisted as God the Logos (John 1:1) and was restored to full deity by His resurrection and exaltation. But He "emptied Himself (Phil. 2:6)" of all His divine prerogatives to become human and, therefore, like us, needed the Holy Spirit's anointing to perform His miracles and acquire His revelations. What remained from His preexistent Deity was His sense of oneness with God (John 10:30), a continuity of identity unique to Him that (a) enabled Him to be restored to full Deity by His resurrection and exaltation, but (b) did not exempt Him from any of our human limitations. In His humanity, Jesus was "a little lower than the angels" (Hebrews 2:9) because He was not "fully divine," but was "fully human." In His post-resurrection exaltation, He becomes "superior to angels" once again, but needs to be "begotten" or birthed as God's Son (1:3-5 quoting Psalm 2:7; similarly Acts 13:32-33)!

(3) Why does the young Jesus therefore need to "grow" not only "in wisdom," but "in favor with God" (Luke 2:52), implying an earlier phase in which He was less wise and, more shockingly, less in favor with God?

(3a) We are His disciples and He needed to serve as our legitimate sinless example without the divine advantages that would make a mockery of His status as our role model. Thus, Jesus needed to be "tested in exactly "the same way as we are (Hebrews 4:15)," and so, needed to "learn obedience from the things He suffered (5.8)."

(3b) But 4:15 claims that He endured all this "without sin." How can He be so limited and learn by trial and error, and still remain sinless? A word study of "sin" in the original languages shows that sin is a condition that misses the mark and separates us from God. The thread that links Christ's preincarnational divinity with His post-resurrection divinity consists of His oneness with the Father. Maturation and sin are two different things. Nothing in Jesus' learning process put Him in a state of sin and separated Him from His oneness with God.

(3c) But His learning curve and His free will mean that He might have failed! He "grew in favor with God (Luke 2:52)," implying an earlier phase in which He was less in favor with God! In my view, that is why the earliest Christian liturgical fragments, hymns, and traditions confess that Jesus was appointed or "begotten" to His status as God's Son after His resurrection. He needed to prove Himself-and He did!

(4) Why does Jesus both distinguish between Himself and God and deny that He is "good" (Mark 10:17f.) and therefore feel the need for John's baptism of repentance?

(4a) In implicitly denying that He is good in Mark 10:17--18, Jesus identifies God the Father as the source of all goodness. Jesus is humbly confessing that whatever goodness He displays derives from God ("God alone is good."). But how can Jesus implicitly deny that He is God here? Remember He has surrendered all His divine prerogatives to become totally human; and He is really distinguishing Himself from God in the sense of God the Father.

(4b) The language of Matthew 3:14 means that Jesus is fulfilling a righteous act by seeking baptism, not that He is trying to set a good example! Jesus is repenting, but repentance just means a change of mind or direction and the direction of Jesus' life is more dramatically changed by His baptism than any human's life ever!

How, then, should we conceive the Trinity? (1) God the Father, (2) the Holy Spirit, conceived as God's saving power in action, and (3) God the "Logos," a Greek term that means not just "Word," but "the rational Self-expression of God" as opposed to God in His unknowability. Psychology, then, is the rational study of the mind. Thus, the Logos was the natural manifestation of the incarnate God, Jesus, that we can understand. The difference between the preincarnate Logos and the exalted Christ is that now the Logos has absorbed humanity into its essence; and Peter can say that we are destined to "participate in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)." How I'd love to know the experiential reality of Peter's claim!
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