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Light years is a time measure

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RealityCheck

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It says no event horizon. Earlier in the article is said no black holes. So are you saying the article was bogus?

Right, anyone reading the article would see the context. However, it doesn't matter who states it, so much as whether that is representative of science. The guy had it right. Of course science is limited.


Well, if Hawking still believes in black holes, I guess that article in science daily was somewhat less than clear.


The reason black holes were invented was to use earth laws to explain what we see far away. Right?

No. Black holes were not "invented". Black holes were hypothesized as existent based on the implications of gravitational theories, which indicated that there was an upper limit to how much mass could compact into a white dwarf or neutron star following collapse of massive stars. But having observed stars with much higher masses it was clear there had to be something that those stars became when they died out.... and that was what bore out black holes.

*staff edit*
 
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RealityCheck

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It says no event horizon. Earlier in the article is said no black holes. So are you saying the article was bogus?

The day that a website science news article written by a journalist actually gets the science accurately, is the day I parade naked through the center of town. It just won't happen in our lifetimes.

Right, anyone reading the article would see the context. However, it doesn't matter who states it, so much as whether that is representative of science. The guy had it right. Of course science is limited.

No one would dispute that - all you're disputing is *how* limited, and you're wrong about it. You were also wrong about what he meant with the reference to the ambiguity about what exactly space-time is - not whether it exists or behaves uniformly in the universe. The same is true of many things. We know gravity exists, we know how it works, we just don't know exactly the "why" of it - such as, why is gravity always an attractive force and never repulsive. We know matter exists, but exactly "what" matter is, as opposed to energy, is still being investigated.

Science is always like that. You would have everyone believe that this is one of science's weaknesses. It is not. What's weak is finding an answer, accepting that answer, and defending that answer against all evidence to the contrary. And before you mis-interpret that, evidence is not the same as an idea. Rejecting a wild and unsubstantiated idea is nowhere near the same as rejecting repeatedly demonstrated empirical evidence. I have seen countless times fundies rant about science being "closed minded." Of course it is going to be closed off to new ideas *unless and until* those ideas are backed up by actual, real, empirical evidence. That is the whole point of the methodology. It is a way of weeding out bad ideas, shoddy research, poorly collected data, and numerous other flaws in order to promote only those things that have been well researched, well investigated, and supported by reams of evidence.


Well, if Hawking still believes in black holes, I guess that article in science daily was somewhat less than clear.

See first comment.

Also, as you probably do not know, there are two different types of black holes being referred to. Which I wouldn't expect anyone without a physics degree to know, much less a journalist.

There are the black holes that result from stellar collapse, and there are "primordial" black holes. The black holes resulting from stellar collapse were the ones I described above, and there are several objects we've observed that are, very likely, such black holes. Primordial black holes, however, pre-date stars. Those are, I suppose, "invented" black holes in the sense that they were a very plausible answer to the problem of why anything in the universe exists at all. The primary problem stemmed from predictions of older BB theory and rapid expansion that, without any other mechanisms, said the universe ought to be essentially homegeneous. Why then was matter "clumped" into stars and galaxies, very sparsely through the universe, with largely "empty" space making up pretty much the vast majority? Primordial black holes were one solid answer as they would have upset the homogeneity. Where did they go? Hawking proposed that mechanism - electron-positron pairs spontaneously forming out of the underlying quantum field. Ordinarily such a pair exists for less than the Planck time, and then re-annihilate each other - the Planck time being a brief enough time to stay within the Uncertainty Principle bounds. But if one formed at the edge of a black hole, one of the pair could become trapped in the black hole, and the other would then be free and continue to exist. This also provided an explanation for there being much more matter than anti-matter in the universe - one type of such pairs (the positron) ended up being more commonly swallowed than the other (the electron). The particle entering the black hole would, along with many other such particles, act to eventually make the tiny black hole evaporate. I don't recall exactly how that works but that was the concept.
 
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dad

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No. Black holes were not "invented". Black holes were hypothesized as existent based on the implications of gravitational theories,
Exactly what I said..invented to conform to earth laws.


which indicated that there was an upper limit to how much mass could compact into a white dwarf or neutron star following collapse of massive stars.
IF all were earth rules.

But having observed stars with much higher masses
Nonsense, you do not know how big or how far they are. Like to claim you don't need to?
it was clear there had to be something that those stars became when they died out.... and that was what bore out black holes.
No wonder they invent and later repent!! 'There must be something if earth rules applied'

End of story.

Now, if time were not the same and or did not exist as we know it, that could mean that anything moving in that area would not involve the time we here on earth expect!!! That kills all distance and therefore sizes, etc etc.

374811767_640.jpg


So called science is truly relegated to a religion.
 
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dad

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The day that a website science news article written by a journalist actually gets the science accurately, is the day I parade naked through the center of town. It just won't happen in our lifetimes.
Get a grip.


Stephen Hawking: 'There are no black holes'



" A full explanation of the process, the physicist admits, would require a theory that successfully merges gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature. But that is a goal that has eluded physicists for nearly a century. “The correct treatment,” Hawking says, “remains a mystery.”

Stephen Hawking: 'There are no black holes' : Nature News & Comment

Basically, many sites do say that he disses black holes. In effect, they are correct, are they not?! Basically, he doesn't know.
The same is true of many things. We know gravity exists,
That's another thread!!!! I challenge that claim when applied to deep space, that gravity exists exactly as we know it here.
we know how it works, we just don't know exactly the "why" of it -
Right, even in the fishbowl you have no idea why it works.

such as, why is gravity always an attractive force and never repulsive.
Well, if we add a spiritual force who knows!! On earth, in a physical only environment, it does just the one thing.

We know matter exists, but exactly "what" matter is, as opposed to energy, is still being investigated.
Maybe find something you do know, this is getting tedious.

Science is always like that. You would have everyone believe that this is one of science's weaknesses. It is not.
Not where ignorance is bliss and godlessness is paramount I guess.



What's weak is finding an answer, accepting that answer, and defending that answer against all evidence to the contrary. And before you mis-interpret that, evidence is not the same as an idea. Rejecting a wild and unsubstantiated idea is nowhere near the same as rejecting repeatedly demonstrated empirical evidence.
Why launch into a pontification right after a list of basics you admit not knowing!!??


I have seen countless times fundies rant about science being "closed minded." Of course it is going to be closed off to new ideas *unless and until* those ideas are backed up by actual, real, empirical evidence.
In other words, physical only, in the fishbowl concepts. We think bigger. We have more open and enlightened minds!

That is the whole point of the methodology. It is a way of weeding out bad ideas, shoddy research, poorly collected data, and numerous other flaws in order to promote only those things that have been well researched, well investigated, and supported by reams of evidence.
It allows only fishbowl ideas. It weeds out the truth of God and all else that gets in the way!

Also, as you probably do not know, there are two different types of black holes being referred to. Which I wouldn't expect anyone without a physics degree to know, much less a journalist.
Both are junk, and based on the same nonsense fishbowl religion.

There are the black holes that result from stellar collapse,
Right, so where is the one predicted for SN1987a!!!!!??? M.I.A. !!


and there are "primordial" black holes. The black holes resulting from stellar collapse were the ones I described above, and there are several objects we've observed that are, very likely, such black holes. Primordial black holes, however, pre-date stars. Those are, I suppose, "invented" black holes in the sense that they were a very plausible answer to the problem of why anything in the universe exists at all.
Wow, even you admit inventing them, they must be pathetic!

The primary problem stemmed from predictions of older BB theory and rapid expansion that, without any other mechanisms, said the universe ought to be essentially homegeneous. Why then was matter "clumped" into stars and galaxies, very sparsely through the universe,
Crazy little premise. Ridiculous!



with largely "empty" space making up pretty much the vast majority? Primordial black holes were one solid answer as they would have upset the homogeneity.
Hilarious. Grasping at fishbowl straws to explain the universe.

Where did they go? Hawking proposed that mechanism - electron-positron pairs spontaneously forming out of the underlying quantum field. Ordinarily such a pair exists for less than the Planck time, and then re-annihilate each other - the Planck time being a brief enough time to stay within the Uncertainty Principle bounds. But if one formed at the edge of a black hole, one of the pair could become trapped in the black hole, and the other would then be free and continue to exist. This also provided an explanation for there being much more matter than anti-matter in the universe
Same earth based laws methodology.
- one type of such pairs (the positron) ended up being more commonly swallowed than the other (the electron). The particle entering the black hole would, along with many other such particles, act to eventually make the tiny black hole evaporate. I don't recall exactly how that works but that was the concept.
Impressive. You are fairly acquainted with the fable. But I see flaws from start to end, and it is certain they could never defend that belief based view of the universe.
 
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Delphiki

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For one thing, there's nothing in biological evolution that would even require a measurement in light years. Light years are typically referred to in astronomy. So, how exactly is this post even suppose to be a statement directed toward "evols".

Second, if you are trying to say it's a length of time, then whats the conversion rate between a conventional earth year and a "light year"?

For example, I can tell you that as the measure of distance that is actually is, a light year is the distance light travels in one year, which is about 63,242 AU, or 0.3 parsecs, or 5,880,000,000,000 miles.

(Yes, despite what Han Solo may lead you to believe, a parsec is also a measure of distance, not time)
 
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RealityCheck

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Get a grip.


Stephen Hawking: 'There are no black holes'



" A full explanation of the process, the physicist admits, would require a theory that successfully merges gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature. But that is a goal that has eluded physicists for nearly a century. “The correct treatment,” Hawking says, “remains a mystery

Stephen Hawking: 'There are no black holes' : Nature News & Comment

Basically, many sites do say that he disses black holes. In effect, they are correct, are they not?! Basically, he doesn't know.

This is entirely off your OP but anyway....

What Hawking has a problem with is "event horizons" of black holes. This is due to a conflict between general relativity and quantum dynamics. Hawking proposed a way around the problem. He *did not* suggest that black holes do not exist, but that the event horizon that makes them "black" may not be exactly as previously envisioned.

And of course this is noted because its Hawking saying it, not someone the public has never heard of. And he may... Well make that may likely.... be wrong.

As stated in this article... which does a much better job of accurately reporting this.

No Black Holes? More Like Grey Holes, Says Hawking : Discovery News

Not, of course, that you will or can learn anything from it. I post it not to educate you, but to demonstrate that... once again... you are hysterically wrong.

That's another thread!!!! I challenge that claim when applied to deep space, that gravity exists exactly as we know it here.
Right, even in the fishbowl you have no idea why it works.

Well, if we add a spiritual force who knows!! On earth, in a physical only environment, it does just the one thing.

And that should close this up nicely. When youre ready to stop playing with ridiculous what ifs just to continue believing your views of the bible, then we can discuss more. Till then.... good bye.
 
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dad

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That's a big IF you got there. Shame you've never gotten past that stage.
Shame science doesn't even know what time is, let alone wheter it exists as we know it in deep space eh? Ha.

b9f4fbe06e4e10e260b8a660817901bb.jpg


Lights are a theoretical distance measure, and have no bearing in reality out of the earth area, that we know. It was all just believed, all just a story.
 
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bhsmte

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Shame science doesn't even know what time is, let alone wheter it exists as we know it in deep space eh? Ha.

b9f4fbe06e4e10e260b8a660817901bb.jpg


Lights are a theoretical distance measure, and have no bearing in reality out of the earth area, that we know. It was all just believed, all just a story.

Didn't the group Chicago write a song about that?
 
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dad

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For one thing, there's nothing in biological evolution that would even require a measurement in light years.
Right. Glad you got that much!



Light years are typically referred to in astronomy.
You are on a roll.

So, how exactly is this post even suppose to be a statement directed toward "evols".
I don't use that word. I use evos. But of course the stellar evolution fable, and the big bang whopper fable are in the evo family of godless beliefs.
Second, if you are trying to say it's a length of time, then whats the conversion rate between a conventional earth year and a "light year"?
Unknown. Depends on if and how time exists. Let's do a thought experiment. Say a sector of space far away that equaled the distance a light year on and near earth equals. (of course no one has ever ever ever been a light year away, so it is based on light from our sun, and lab tests etc). Let's say time in this sector was only 5% of what it is here on average. How long would it take for a ship moving at our speed of light to get across this space? Seems to me that about 20 times faster if my quick mental math is right?

For example, I can tell you that as the measure of distance that is actually is, a light year is the distance light travels in one year, which is about 63,242 AU, or 0.3 parsecs, or 5,880,000,000,000 miles.
Actually is on earth. We know that!
(Yes, despite what Han Solo may lead you to believe, a parsec is also a measure of distance, not time)
Nope. It would only be so if time were the same far away. All bets are off!
 
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Loudmouth

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Shame science doesn't even know what time is, let alone wheter it exists as we know it in deep space eh? Ha.

Lights are a theoretical distance measure, and have no bearing in reality out of the earth area, that we know. It was all just believed, all just a story.

*staff edit* ...your level of doubt and denial would prevent us from determing if a clock sitting next to us was running at the same rate as a clock in the next room.

Your beliefs require a complete rejection of reality.
 
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Kylie

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Shame science doesn't even know what time is, let alone wheter it exists as we know it in deep space eh? Ha.

b9f4fbe06e4e10e260b8a660817901bb.jpg


Lights are a theoretical distance measure, and have no bearing in reality out of the earth area, that we know. It was all just believed, all just a story.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

It would be like me asking what's the distance in faith healings between Jerusalem and Bethlehem?
 
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dad

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dad

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You have no idea what you are talking about.

It would be like me asking what's the distance in faith healings between Jerusalem and Bethlehem?

Looking at what you quoted...

"Lights are a theoretical distance measure, and have no bearing in reality out of the earth area, that we know. It was all just believed, all just a story."

The fact is that how far light moves in a certain amount of time does involve time. So unless time is as it is on earth, distance is not knowable unless time is the same. You get this much?
 
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dad

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*staff edit*

Your beliefs require a complete rejection of reality.
Your so called reality requires rejection. But cheer up, that is but a step in the right direction...toward truth.
 
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Kylie

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Looking at what you quoted...

"Lights are a theoretical distance measure, and have no bearing in reality out of the earth area, that we know. It was all just believed, all just a story."

The fact is that how far light moves in a certain amount of time does involve time. So unless time is as it is on earth, distance is not knowable unless time is the same. You get this much?

And like I said earlier, that's a mighty big IF you have there. And you have nothing at all to support your ideas.

Learn how science works, dad. You'll feel better for it.
 
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