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Anguspure

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I know, apart from the initial protests from people who hadn't read the work that intuition plays no part in science I have seen precious little.

Read the book for yourself. Many of the reviewers certainly havn't bothered. You could be one step ahead of them.

Functional Coherence: the hirarchical arrangement of parts needed for anything to produce a high-level function - each part contributing in a coordinated way to the whole. (Douglas Axe, Undeniable, Kindle location 1970)
 
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pitabread

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Read the book for yourself. Many of the reviewers certainly havn't bothered. You could be one step ahead of them.

I asked you previously if it had anything new to offer compared to prior ID offerings (Dembski, Behe, even Axe's previously published works). I've read a lot of ID literature in the past and I'm not going to go out and get a book if it doesn't offer anything new and interesting.

What does it offer that prior books on ID haven't?

Functional Coherence: the hirarchical arrangement of parts needed for anything to produce a high-level function - each part contributing in a coordinated way to the whole. (Douglas Axe, Undeniable, Kindle location 1970)

That's too vague a definition to be useful. What does he mean by "hierarchal arrangement"? How is the hierarchy determined? What is a "high-level" function? For that matter, what is a "function" in this context? How is that defined and/or determined? What counts as contribution and/or coordination?

What I'm asking for is a methodological approach to actually using such a definition in a proper, reasonably objective manner.

1) Is there a methodology by which one can take an arbitrary object and apply this definition objectively? IOW, could multiple people independently apply the methodology to the same object and get the same results?

2) Can this then be applied to biological organisms or components thereof in the same fashion?

3) Since I'm assuming this is an attempt to argue that such systems are un-evolvable, this means such an application needs to be a demonstrable barrier to evolution. This is where Behe's irreducible complexity has traditionally failed as it turns out it is not synonymous with un-evolvable.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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This has got to be the most darn interesting thing I've read in a long time. Thanks for sharing that!
 
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DogmaHunter

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i asked you a simple question so please answner and we will see.

I answered your fallacious question a billion times over already.


Robots and humans are not identical.
A robot is a mechanical device.
A human is a biological creature.
 
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DogmaHunter

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In a debate one must engage the argument in order to be succesful.

Ad hominem attacks reveal a projected cognitive dissonance that undermines rational discussion.

Maybe first learn what an ad hominim is before throwing it around in sentences.
 
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Shemjaza

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Does it do something? It displays functional coherence if the system displays a different (higher level) function than what the individual components each perform.
You have not presented any objective metric or method.

"Does something" and "different (higher level) function" are both just subjective judgement calls, not objective measures.

No matter how many new layers of jargon and weasel words you lay on, "It looks designed to me" will not become a scientific conclusion.

Okay, DNA is a complicated molecule formed from other molecules which are made up of atoms, etc.

What is the "objective" point you want to divide it up on and what specifically do you get out of that?
 
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pitabread

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xianghua

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I answered your fallacious question a billion times over already.



Robots and humans are not identical.
A robot is a mechanical device.
A human is a biological creature.
so the difference is the material they made from basically?
 
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pitabread

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so the difference is the material they made from basically?

People have patiently explained the difference between living and non living things to you in the past. Did you not retain anything from those prior discussions?
 
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Anguspure

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A development of how functional coherence (which is not mentioned in other books) as a formal concept confirms the design inference.

That's too vague a definition to be useful. What does he mean by "hierarchal arrangement"?
This is the beauty of Axes work: that the words in it are arranged in a manner as to convey the normal dictionary meaning of them, in English, to an English speaker. By doing so he makes his work accesible to the average reader who wishes to discover what he thinks on the topic that he is writing.

hierachical: of the nature of a hierarchy; arranged in order of rank.

arrangement: the action, process, or result of arranging or being arranged.

A hierachical arrangement would be an arrangement of something in a hierachical manner, having hierachical ranks.

The hierachical arrangement of a system would be a system in which parts are arranged in ranks of function so as to form the system.

Example of an hierarchical arrangement: Rank 1 (Compounds) - Rank 2 (Amino Acids) - Rank 3 (Amino Acid String) - Rank 4 (Functional protein).

How is the hierarchy determined?
According to rank of function. i.e. Compounds must first be arranged correctly in order to for amino acids to form and function in a manner for Rank 3 to be possible. Rank 1 must be correctly arranged in order to allow Rank 2 to function correctly.

What is a "high-level" function?
A function that a system carries out as a result of the coherent manner in which the hierachical arrangement permits. i.e. The pixels (Rank 1) arranged into letters (Rank 2) - words (Rank 3) - sentences (Rank 4) - paragraphs (Rank 5) in a coherent manner form the hig-level function of conveying meaning to the observer. The low level function of pixels is to form letters, but this in itself does not form the high level function, which is observed at the 5th rank.

For that matter, what is a "function" in this context? How is that defined and/or determined?
Function is the natural action of a system so arranged.

In the case of biology purpose of function is evident in that sub-systems of high level functional coherence necessarily form a part of an even more functionally coherent system that carries out such high level functions as communicating to other systems using language.

What counts as contribution and/or coordination?
Being a neccessary part of a system, without which the system does not function.

What I'm asking for is a methodological approach to actually using such a definition in a proper, reasonably objective manner.

1) Is there a methodology by which one can take an arbitrary object and apply this definition objectively?
Yes
IOW, could multiple people independently apply the methodology to the same object and get the same results?
Yes
2) Can this then be applied to biological organisms or components thereof in the same fashion?
Yes
3) Since I'm assuming this is an attempt to argue that such systems are un-evolvable, this means such an application needs to be a demonstrable barrier to evolution.
That functionally coherent sytems do not appear by a series of random mutations selected for fitness through the natural environment is perhaps a valid claim.

The test would be to make some parts available, in an environment and watch to see what happens.

The problem with science, admittedly is that the intelligence cannot be observed through the lense of MN even if it did deign to repeat it's creative action. So any results thus obtained would be subject to myopia and interpreted falsely.

However the competence of naturally occuring, intelligence free laws and forces to produce observed effects is freely observable, and given the time frame that has been available thus far, and the effects that have been produced in that time frame, the competence can be expected to be readily observable in a very short time frame.

Thousands upon thousands of new and functionally coherent systems should evolve from our experimental parts on a daily basis.

However many ways there may be of being alive, it is certain that there are vastly more ways of being dead, or rather not alive. You may throw cells together at random, over and over again for a billion years, and not once will you get a conglomeration that flies or swims or burrows or runs, or does anything, even badly, that could remotely be construed as working to keep itself alive. Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design (New York: Penguin, 1988),

This is where Behe's irreducible complexity has traditionally failed as it turns out it is not synonymous with un-evolvable.
When just so stories are regarded as synonimous with evidence then I guess we could "prove" anything, including that irreducibly complex systems can arise by NS.

Behe wrote a whole book showing the demonstrable competence of ND to produce evolution in 3 organisms over many millions of generations in the real world.
 
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Anguspure

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I answered your fallacious question a billion times over already.



Robots and humans are not identical.
A robot is a mechanical device.
A human is a biological creature.
Compared to the functional coherence evident in a Human (or even the most basic life form for that matter), a robot displays the functional coherence of a rock.
 
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Anguspure

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That an accident happened that allowed the circuit to have been repurposed is about where the comparison with ND ends.

Clearly the mutation did not supply any selective advantage to the circuit (the researchers where looking for something for which a radio was irrelevant), and so clearly the circuit was not going to replicate in this manner.

I could point to any number of instances where mutated things happened to become useful to me for other purposes if I so wished. However the reality is that almost all of them end up in the garbage bin (although I do have one mutated screw driver that now serves as a scribing tool).
 
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Anguspure

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English is the language by which we are communicating.

The word "function" carries a normal meaning that could be described in a number of ways using different words to convey the same meaning.


I can see that your rebuttal begins with an attempt to undermine the very meaning of the language being used in order to cause a perceived confusion and so deniability.

This is another strategy commonly employed by those who do not wish to engage the argument.
 
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Anguspure

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Maybe first learn what an ad hominim is before throwing it around in sentences.
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Paul Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement lists ad hominem as the second lowest type of argument in a disagreement.​

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

A very recent and clear example of an Ad Hominen argument is found in this post:
When the post starts with a link to a site known to be filled with misinformation, creationist propaganda and dishonesty… One can know that only nonsense will follow.

BTW I note that Graham ommits claims of Semantic Equivocation or the exploitation of Lexical Ambiguity comonly employed as a strategy to muddy the waters.
 
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That web page is just fantasies about chemical and biological structures, etc. being intelligent design.

An obvious lie: "But the existence of the membrane code shows that the Central Dogma is false". Central dogma of molecular biology is that the determination of sequence of bases in the nucleic acid or of amino acid do not flow from proteins to proteins or to nucleic acids. A "spatial information" phrase is not the information carried by proteins that determines the sequence of bases.

A "evolution is unguided cannot account for the complex specified information in DNA" lie. Thre is no evidence for "complex specified information" in DNA. Evolution can account for the information in DNA.

There is at least 1 probable lie: "So DNA carries biological information, and that information points to design". They give no scientific evidence to support this assertion. Sounds like argument from incredibility (DNA is a complex chemical and so it must be designed).
 
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Anguspure

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As I have explained with thanks to Douglas Axe, functional coherence is evident at a high level in all biology and it is fantastically improbable that this arose by any means identified as "evolution".
 
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DogmaHunter

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Want an example of muddying the waters?
Go and read anything on that site you linked to.

If you wish to learn about biology, go to scientific sources instead of known fundamentalist propaganda.
 
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DogmaHunter

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As I have explained with thanks to Douglas Axe, functional coherence is evident at a high level in all biology ^

It's also explained in evolution theory.

and it is fantastically improbable that this arose by any means identified as "evolution".

Not at all.
The process of evolution, instead, inevitably results in "functional coherence".
 
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DogmaHunter

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Compared to the functional coherence evident in a Human (or even the most basic life form for that matter), a robot displays the functional coherence of a rock.

It doesn't matter.
Robots aren't biological entities and thus aren't subject to biological processes.

So pointing out that robots didn't come about through biological evolution, is simply stating the obvious.
 
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