Life after life after death (i.e. resurrection)

cloudyday2

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(This issue came up in another thread, so I thought it might deserve a thread of its own.)

Crypto mentioned that many Christians believe that we die and immediately reach our eternal destination as a disembodied spirit (heaven or hell). However, Christianity teaches that there will be a physical resurrection of the dead when Jesus physically returns to Earth. Therefore whatever happens to us after death is only temporary until Jesus returns and there is a physical resurrection.

Here is a link to the other thread. See posts 24, 28, and 30:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7875193-3/

The problem with that idea IMO is how does a physical life become heavenly? Will we start over as infants and grow old but never die? Will we eat our favorite fried chicken dinners? Will we have life-threatening conflicts?

So what do you guys think?

Here is a gospel quote that touches on the issues (Matthew 22:23-32 NIV):
23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...Luke+20:27-40,Acts+23:7,Acts+23:8&version=NIV
 

St_Worm2

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Hi CloudyDay2, here are a couple of passages for you to consider concerning the end of this age and the age to come.

A New Heaven and Earth

The day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." 2 Peter 3:10–13

I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” Revelation 21:1-4

That there will be a new heaven and new earth was also prophesied in the OT book of Isaiah, chpt 66 (just FYI). Does this help, or do you have further questions?

Yours and His,
David
 
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St_Worm2

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I also remember Jesus said once we are in heaven we are like angels, there is no marriage, so I am guessing that the physical might be rather different than the physical right now (i.e. no need to eat/drink/or other physical desires)

Hi dcalling, while it's clear that there will be no increase in the human population following the resurrection (Matthew 22:30; Romans 11:25), I'm not sure about food (since there is the indication that we will return to being vegetarians after the consumption .. no pun intended:D .. of this age and, of course, Jesus ate after He rose from the dead .. Luke 24:36-43).

No doubt our resurrected/glorified bodies will be very different from the ones we now possess however .. :amen:

Yours and His,
David
 
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ViaCrucis

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I also remember Jesus said once we are in heaven we are like angels, there is no marriage, so I am guessing that the physical might be rather different than the physical right now (i.e. no need to eat/drink/or other physical desires)

Just as a point: Jesus doesn't say in heaven we will be like the angels, but that in the resurrection we will be like the angels, only in the sense that they neither "marry nor are given in marriage".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The problem with that idea IMO is how does a physical life become heavenly? Will we start over as infants and grow old but never die? Will we eat our favorite fried chicken dinners? Will we have life-threatening conflicts?

Since the resurrection is the arising (Greek: anastasis) of the body, it's not about starting over as infants. There is one who has already been raised from the dead, Jesus, and so He serves as our only example of what resurrection means and is like. When Christ rose from the dead it was a full restoration of bodily life, He even bore the wounds of crucifixion (the significance of which is that His body didn't lay still in the earth and simply receive some sort of "new body" but was indeed raised up in the body He had before). But more than just a restoration of bodily life, it is a transformation of bodily life. Jesus, at times, simply appears before His disciples without rational explanation.

This last part actually was a major point of contention between Martin Luther and John Calvin during the Reformation. For Luther Christ's glorified body meant He was unconstrained, and for this reason though Christ is ascended and at the right hand of the Father He can no less be universally and bodily present in the form of the bread and wine of the Eucharist; for Calvin Christ being bodily present at the right hand of God means that He cannot be bodily present in the Eucharist, but is instead present in a spiritual sense. Likewise Calvin argued that when Christ, in the Gospel narratives, appears before His followers after the resurrection, He has in fact crawled in through a window or a back door; for Luther it is simply that Christ, being now glorified, does not share in the ordinary constraints we associate with physicality.

Turning to St. Paul, he contrasts the present body as being a "soulish body" (soma psuchekos) whereas the resurrection body is a "spiritual body" (soma pneumatikos). It's very easy for English readers to see usual translations "natural body" and "spiritual body" and assume Paul is referring to material composition of the body (matter vs. spirit) but the contrast isn't between materiality and immateriality, but between the operative power of the body--soul vs. spirit; or as I think it should be put, soul vs. the Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit). To emphasize that point I usually go to Romans 8:11 where Paul says that if the "Spirit of He who raised Christ from the dead dwells in you, than He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies." In other words, the present body is animated by ordinary animal breath, "the soul", but in the resurrection the body is quickened by the power of the Holy Spirit, God Himself makes us alive by the same power that raised up Christ, and as such the promise of the Holy Spirit received in Baptism is nothing less than the promise of resurrection: That He who did not abandon Christ to death and decay will likewise not abandon us to death and decay but will raise us up even as He raised up Jesus.

Paul likewise speaks of the present body being "corruptible" or "perishable" (in the Greek it literally refers to what can decay or decompose) but it--the body--is raised imperishable or incorruptible. The body is sown mortal, but raised immortal. Paul speaks of a seed being sown and what is raised from the burial and "death" of the seed is something far more glorious than what was sown. So there is this sense, ultimately, if I plant an acorn I'll get an oak, but the oak only grows if the acorn is planted and becomes something bigger and better--an oak tree. So we can say, in a like manner, the body is sown and will be raised in glory, raised imperishable and immortal, but what that means in a truly ultimate sense is unknowable. We can only, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, see through a glass dimly.

So we can say these things: There is a resurrection of the body, a full restoration and transformation of bodily life. The body is sown bound as it is by sin and death, but raised in glory; the body is sown perishable but is raised imperishable, it is sown mortal but raised immortal. Even as we've been human as Adam was human, so shall we be human even as Christ is now human. What it all ultimately looks like remains unknown; but it will be a life fitting to the future age when God renews and restores all creation, making new the heavens and the earth, indeed all things. And God shall be all in all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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cloudyday2

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Thanks, everybody, for the ideas.

Consider Conan the Barbarian:
Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
Conan: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good.
Conan the Barbarian (1982) - Quotes - IMDb

Like it or not, there is a little bit of Conan the Barbarian in all of us.

Consider free will. If we have perfect knowledge of the outcomes, won't we always choose righteously? We have no real choice. Free will requires uncertainty about what will happen and/or what we desire. We need this uncertainty to be alive, but if we have this uncertainty then we must make bad choices sometimes. Heaven must have misery, disappointments, competition, war, death, etc.
 
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oi_antz

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My first question is why do people teach that there is consciousness for those passed on when they have not been resurrected? My present understanding is that we die, that is it. Nothing experienced after that time (because we don't have a body to experience it with). Then everyone is resurrected and sorted. If someone has shown you scripture that suggests otherwise, would you mind producing it to this thread? Here is a couple that I am thinking of:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+6:5&version=NIV
Among the dead no one proclaims your name.
Who praises you from the grave?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15:51-52&version=NIV
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+2:11,20:14&version=NIV
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Thanks, everybody, for the ideas.

Consider Conan the Barbarian:

Conan the Barbarian (1982) - Quotes - IMDb

Like it or not, there is a little bit of Conan the Barbarian in all of us.
But unless we are persuaded, the amount of Conan is usually not enough to displace our moral ethic.
Consider free will. If we have perfect knowledge of the outcomes, won't we always choose righteously?
Not necessarily. That would be a test of character.
We have no real choice. Free will requires uncertainty about what will happen and/or what we desire.
Not necessarily. God must be the only one who can possibly be in this position (to my reckoning). Then if He truly has free will, then His choices must be considering a conflicting outcome, for which each outcome satisfies different desires. Then He must choose which desire He prefers to satisfy, but He does not need to be uncertain about the outcome or about His desires.
We need this uncertainty to be alive,
Are you sure about this?
but if we have this uncertainty then we must make bad choices sometimes.
I will agree with this, insofaras a bad choice produces a result that we regret.
Heaven must have misery, disappointments, competition, war, death, etc.
2/5 I do not think is likely. 3/5 I would like more information. Here is why:

What causes misery?

What causes disappointment?

What causes death and what sustains life?

Competition is caused by someone wanting greater esteem than another. Jesus prophesied that the least will be called the greatest in heaven.This is only possible if the whole community is of the opinion that humbleness is a great virtue (which is an absolute, common opinion in Christianity, but not in this world). Therefore I think there will not be competition in heaven because it will be condemned.

There will not be war, because everyone willingly obeys God (it is proven that those selected are of the opinion that this is best - knowledge from experience, which Adam and Eve did not have in the first place).

Remember the parable of the spoons. It contains profound truth.
 
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graceandpeace

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Crypto mentioned that many Christians believe that we die and immediately reach our eternal destination as a disembodied spirit (heaven or hell). However, Christianity teaches that there will be a physical resurrection of the dead when Jesus physically returns to Earth. Therefore whatever happens to us after death is only temporary until Jesus returns and there is a physical resurrection.

Yes.

The problem with that idea IMO is how does a physical life become heavenly? Will we start over as infants and grow old but never die? Will we eat our favorite fried chicken dinners? Will we have life-threatening conflicts?

No, to the infant idea.

This same body will be made new, whole, alive. It will be transformed, somehow, putting on the imperishable, the immortal. I don't know how, & as the priest at my church said today, I don't know why - but the body is important. It is sacred, a good creation by God. And like all of God's creation - the earth, the cosmos - it will be made whole. So also no to the conflicts question, for tears, pain, & death itself will have passed away.

I don't know if we'll eat fried chicken, but I wouldn't complain if we did. ^_^
 
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St_Worm2

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My first question is why do people teach that there is consciousness for those passed on when they have not been resurrected? My present understanding is that we die, that is it. Nothing experienced after that time (because we don't have a body to experience it with). Then everyone is resurrected and sorted. If someone has shown you scripture that suggests otherwise, would you mind producing it to this thread?

Hi Oi_Antz, here are a few Scriptures that talk about things that happen after we die. It appears to be a conscious existence, IMHO. Click here.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - these verses/passages are not in any particular order of importance.
 
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aiki

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The problem with that idea IMO is how does a physical life become heavenly? Will we start over as infants and grow old but never die? Will we eat our favorite fried chicken dinners? Will we have life-threatening conflicts?

So what do you guys think?
How does a physical life become heavenly? The Bible doesn't go into specifics. We are simply told that we will be raised in a glorified body as Christ was. The actual mechanics of this transformation are not, I suspect, within our capacity to understand.

I don't think aging will be a part of our eternal existence - for obvious reasons.

Will resurrected believers eat their favorite food? I expect that such things will fade to nothing before the awesome illumination of our understanding and the incredible glorification of our bodies. It wouldn't surprise me if we were so entirely preoccupied with God that our present earthly pleasures and concerns are all totally forgotten.

Will we have life-threatening conflicts? No. Such things arise from the sin-nature of each of us from which we will be completely free in our eternal existence.

Consider free will. If we have perfect knowledge of the outcomes, won't we always choose righteously? We have no real choice. Free will requires uncertainty about what will happen and/or what we desire. We need this uncertainty to be alive,
I don't see that free will is vital to our being alive...

but if we have this uncertainty then we must make bad choices sometimes. Heaven must have misery, disappointments, competition, war, death, etc.
What makes you think we will exercise our free will in our eternal existence just as we do now? Our eternal destiny is a sort of confirmation, a permanent setting into place, of the course toward or away from God that we chose in our temporal existence. Have you heard of "will-setting moments"? The idea is that as we make choices we confirm ourselves in a particular line of being. A particular choice disposes us to a similar second choice, and then to a third such choice, and so on until we no longer actually freely choose but are caught in the force or inertia of our accumulated choices. If this is so, I think heaven (or hell) is the final culmination of the will-setting process. There is, therefore, no free will that we will exercise in heaven and thus none of the complications you mentioned.

Selah.
 
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dcalling

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Just as a point: Jesus doesn't say in heaven we will be like the angels, but that in the resurrection we will be like the angels, only in the sense that they neither "marry nor are given in marriage".

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks Via and David. I still believe that food and everything physical will not be required at that point (we can still eat but it is not required). Just my thought, not proven :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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The topic of free will is always a fascinating one.

Of course when you talk to a Lutheran or a Reformed person they will be rather direct that the will isn't free.

Indeed the will is held captive to sin, a captive will isn't a free one. As such both Lutherans and Calvinists believe that salvation is a monergistic act of God.

But this isn't the same thing as Fatalism or Determinism. Speaking as a Lutheran there remains the power of volition, of choice, in most areas of life: it's just that as it pertains to the righteousness of God we remain powerless and are in need of God who in His grace comes down to us to rescue us, to save us.

So when we begin to speak of "free will" in the Age to Come, I think it's a very interesting consideration: What is the nature of the will in the Age to Come?

I think there's two interesting ways of approaching the subject:

1) The will is most free when it is free in God to live in accordance to God's will. It is not a perfectly free will that chooses death over life, the bad or ill over the good and the just.

2) Theosis: By our growing into maturity in Christ and sharing in the Divine nature who and what we are is conformed to the perfect image of God in Christ.

I think we have our example in Christ: Who being man and thus having a human will was in all ways obedient to the will of the Father, whose will was always in step with the will of God.

It may, in some sense, be best to say that more than a free will, we shall have a perfect will in the Age to Come.

Of course I am by no means attempting to wax dogmatically, I'm merely throwing thoughts into the wind.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dcalling

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Consider free will. If we have perfect knowledge of the outcomes, won't we always choose righteously? We have no real choice. Free will requires uncertainty about what will happen and/or what we desire.

You never know. I know people who choose to go into financial trouble fully aware of their choices. There is a documentary about CERN, and one of the scientist said when his mom told him that he will be alive forever in heaven, he cryed because the idea scares him. So people will choose to die instead of be with God.
 
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cloudyday2

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Thanks, everybody :) I haven't had time to read and think about some of the replies yet.

Of course this thread is about life after life after death, but what about the nature of the intermediate state?
- People with NDEs report being conscious and various experiences
- People often report seeing or talking to deceased loved ones shortly after they die
- Traditionally Christians make prayer requests to dead saints as though they are conscious
- Traditionally there is significance to the first 3 days after death and the first 40 days after death. When a priest dies, somebody reads the gospels to the corpse for 3 days, and people often ask monasteries to pray for deceased loved ones for the first 40 days.

Also, I'm not sure if anybody has brought-up this verse yet (Luke 23:42-43 NIV). It seems to suggest a conscious existence in paradise immediately after death. Of course there are other verses that describe a physical resurrection at the second coming:
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+23:42-43&version=NIV
 
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oi_antz

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Hi Oi_Antz, here are a few Scriptures that talk about things that happen after we die. It appears to be a conscious existence, IMHO. Click here.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - these verses/passages are not in any particular order of importance.
Thank you for this.
 
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oi_antz

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Thanks, everybody :) I haven't had time to read and think about some of the replies yet.

Of course this thread is about life after life after death, but what about the nature of the intermediate state?
- People with NDEs report being conscious and various experiences
- People often report seeing or talking to deceased loved ones shortly after they die
- Traditionally Christians make prayer requests to dead saints as though they are conscious
- Traditionally there is significance to the first 3 days after death and the first 40 days after death. When a priest dies, somebody reads the gospels to the corpse for 3 days, and people often ask monasteries to pray for deceased loved ones for the first 40 days.

Also, I'm not sure if anybody has brought-up this verse yet (Luke 23:42-43 NIV). It seems to suggest a conscious existence in paradise immediately after death. Of course there are other verses that describe a physical resurrection at the second coming:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+23:42-43&version=NIV
It does seem that the overall story of life in a Christian perspective is that God has a vision for how the world should be, but mankind's desire for sin has caused the world to be something much different, much more disappointing to Him, and which causes Him to hate while people that He loves are sad and sore. But not everyone does that, and He is apparently planning to scrap the whole thing and keep what He wants. That seems to be the event of the resurrection, and when Jesus describes this in Matthew 25, He says "come, you who are blessed by my father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world". I remember Jesus speaking to some Pharisee's and using the word "inheritance". It is an extremely strong parable, possibly the greatest. What I saw here from what David showed me, is in Revelation 6:11, those who are martyred for their testimony to what God says are told that He is waiting before He will act, until the number who will be killed for this reason is complete. It occurs to me with that, He requires the completion of mankind's action against Him before He will act finally against them. I guess this is necessary for Him to maintain perfect justice according to His perfect wisdom. Also remember He said "if you are not with me you are actually against me, and whoever is against me scatters".

But I don't know whether this is useful to you, it seems a bit like I do, that you like to think by yourself.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks, everybody :) I haven't had time to read and think about some of the replies yet.

Of course this thread is about life after life after death, but what about the nature of the intermediate state?
- People with NDEs report being conscious and various experiences

For the most part NDEs can be pretty easily explained scientifically, seeing a tunnel of light, etc. I'm inclined to believe that such experiences are the product of an oxygen-starved brain than an actual experience of the beyond.

- People often report seeing or talking to deceased loved ones shortly after they die

I don't toss out of hand the possibility that this could happen, but like NDEs I'm more likely to assume they are the naturally explained: Grief especially is a powerful emotion and powerful emotions do affect the brain. For years after my mom passed my dad spoke of times of waking up in the middle of the night because he heard my mom's voice say his name. Was my mom actually somehow speaking "beyond the grave"? I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I reckon it exceptionally unlikely.

- Traditionally Christians make prayer requests to dead saints as though they are conscious

True enough--though as I'm sure you're aware many Christians frown on the practice--this is largely rooted in a belief about the Communion of Saints, that since whether the Church on earth or the Church "in Heaven" the Church remains united in their faith and unity in Christ--and thus to request prayer from one who has reposed is at a fundamental level no different than requesting prayer from the man or woman in the same room or over the phone. That said, it's a somewhat hot button topic in inter-Christian debate.

- Traditionally there is significance to the first 3 days after death and the first 40 days after death. When a priest dies, somebody reads the gospels to the corpse for 3 days, and people often ask monasteries to pray for deceased loved ones for the first 40 days.

I can't speak for other traditions, but the Lutheran confessions while discouraging requesting the reposed for prayer (though accepting that they do indeed pray for us) explicitly states not to forbid prayers for the dead. Though in Lutheranism such prayer is not, for example, to improve the status of the soul in purgatory (since we don't believe in things like purgatory). So what purpose would it be? We might look at Luther's words said to console women who lost children in childbirth,

"'In summary, see to it that above all else you are a true Christian and that you teach a heartfelt yearning and praying to God in true faith, be it in this or in any other trouble. Then do not be dismayed about your child or yourself. Know that your prayer is pleasing to God and that God will do everything much better than you can comprehend or desire. 'Call upon me,' he says in Psalm 50. 'In the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.' For this reason, we ought not to condemn such infants. Believers and Christians have devoted their longing and yearning and praying for them.'"

That is to say, we pray for the deceased because God says, "Call upon Me", in prayer we turn to God. We may pray for the departed because we love them, care for them, and because we ought to turn to God in our sorrows and our grief to trust upon Him who "will do everything much better than you can comprehend or desire". We entrust the deceased to God, in faith.

Also, I'm not sure if anybody has brought-up this verse yet (Luke 23:42-43 NIV). It seems to suggest a conscious existence in paradise immediately after death. Of course there are other verses that describe a physical resurrection at the second coming:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+23:42-43&version=NIV

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Those in She'ol/Hades were/are in a state of waiting. In the Apostles' Creed we confess "Christ descended into the depths" (Latin: descendit ad inferos), and have historically also spoken about the "Harrowing of Hell". And Jesus turned to the thief saying, "You will be with Me in Paradise", that is the thief would be counted among the righteous dead in Paradise or "Abraham's Bosom" as called in the passage in Luke you refer to. In the Jewish view of the netherworld (She'ol, called Hades in Greek translation) it was split between the abode of the righteous dead called Gan-Eden in Hebrew ("Garden of Edent") or Paradeisos in Greek, and the abode of the wicked dead called Ge-Hinom in Hebrew ("Valley of Hinnom") or Gehenna in Greek. The "two sides" as it were of She'ol, the places of waiting until the Day of Judgment when the dead would be raised, "some to eternal life, and some to everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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