Liberal Hell

[Episcoboi]

No, Hell is a place of constant torment, burnings, weakness, hunger, thirst, exhaustion, nauseous fumes, physical torture, fear of your family and loved ones coming, hopelessness, and regret that will never end. Your senses are a thousand times more sensitive in the spirit realm and as wonderful as Heaven is, Hell is inversely as worse.

For those who do not walk in the light or enter into (and keep) covenant with God through Jesus Christ, it is the worst of the worst. It is worth anything to hear and be warned of this place (no matter how inconvenient or unseemly to hear it) that we might repent and receive the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Do you have scripture quotations for every point about hell you make here? Especially those about extremely heightened pain receptors and the like. Since, my reading of scripture shows very few of these things used to describe "hell." You see some of these things in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, which was parable. Jesus does say some things about "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and where the "worm dies not." Then in Revelations, there is talk about the "lake of fire" but again that book is a metaphorical book of hope that despite our persecutions and pain, we will be victorious.

Hell, as you describe it, is a fiction. It is a tradition that evolved in the church from an earlier tradition that evolved in Judaism from the earlier afterlife traditions of pagan cultures with which they had contact, specifically Hellenism. Then, Hell received new "Ummph" in the preachings of Jonathan Edwards here in America, and evangelicalism has held onto it to this day. Taking an uncritical approach to what is effectively a barbaric tradition.

 

[Alive_Again]

God bless your freedom to express yourself and to be able to explore what is and what is to come. There's usually no other way than to do this openly and be willing to entertain thoughts and reasonings that we do not at first embrace.

Do you have scripture quotations for every point about hell you make here? ...You see some of these things in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, which was parable.

You receive that as a "parable". I hear the words of Jesus as "truth". In this case we are told of a certain man, two really and what happened to them. One spoke to Abraham, who was "alive". Usually the people who oppose the story of Lazarus and the rich man don't believe Abraham is currently cognizant. Jesus indicated that he was alive (although physically "dead"). One suffered and other did not. Have you ever heard any one burning be able to converse? Had them ask for a fingertip of water? Would that really help? Many things regarding our spiritual senses are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. They usually have a scriptural reference, but you apparently do not regard the scriptures the way I tend to, so what's the point of fishing for references?

I'm not trying to be critical, but what would be the point of Jesus tell us this "story" if it were not really true?

It is certain that no man fully understands the truth of the Bible and we allow for varying opinions (particularly here). I would just encourage you to consider them carefully without dismissing them as fable because in this case, we're talking about our final disposition. Wouldn't you agree that is pretty important?! I would guess that their isn't one person who is a Christian that would not share that sentiment. We just want to get it right, that's all. We don't want to be wrong in this case, because you see, so much is on the line and if we love each other, then we don't want to see anyone headed in the wrong direction. Just prayerfully consider this.

What's important here is that as God's creatures, sons and daughters, we are accountable based on our works or fruits for our eternal welfare, to suffer or to experience the joys of the Lord.

...the "lake of fire" but again that book is a metaphorical book of hope that despite our persecutions and pain, we will be victorious.

You can receive it that way if you wish, but although their is much symbolic language given (the language of visions), their are direct accounts and letters to the churches from the Lord Himself. The lake of fire is a final judgment where Hell and death end up. You can be as liberal as you want in your interpretation, but I would urge you to live your life as though it were literal, because it will be too late then to do anything about it. God's simply asking everyone to believe and obey so that it will be well with us. If the scripture is true and I believe it is, then it will be bad for those who do not do this.

Hell, as you describe it, is a fiction...Then, Hell received new "Ummph" in the preachings of Jonathan Edwards here in America, and evangelicalism has held onto it to this day. Taking an uncritical approach to what is effectively a barbaric tradition.

There are many who are deceived. The Bible says that they are taken captive by the devil by his will. You think that I am deceived, but if that is true, then 90% of Christianity s ialso under this deception. (I would consider this a concern when everyone else is wrong) Consider it at least by simply believing it like a little child.

See what happens in your life! You can tell us your story. I'd be interested to hear it. Be blessed in your search for truth.

 

[hedrick]

Jesus is clear that we will be accountable before God. In this case the contrast is between someone who was prosperous in this life, but through selfishness will be judged in the next life, compared to the poor Lazarus, who looked worthless in this life but will be beloved by God in the next. The specific picture of judgement seems likely a conventional 1st Cent Jewish one. Do we really think that Abraham is going to judge us, and that the chief place in heaven is Abraham's bosom? These is from convention imagery, as if a modern Christian said "when the rich man came before Peter at the pearly gates." Thus I wouldn't be so sure Jesus was trying to teach anything specific about the form in which judgement would occur.

Of course there's a second point to the story, which is really an attack on the Pharisees.. Luke 16:21 makes the point that you can't blame God for not being clear enough. Even Jesus' resurrection wasn't enough to convert some people.

 

[Episcoboi]

Jesus is clear that we will be accountable before God. In this case the contrast is between someone who was prosperous in this life, but through selfishness will be judged in the next life, compared to the poor Lazarus, who looked worthless in this life but will be beloved by God in the next. The specific picture of judgement seems likely a conventional 1st Cent Jewish one. Do we really think that Abraham is going to judge us, and that the chief place in heaven is Abraham's bosom? These is from convention imagery, as if a modern Christian said "when the rich man came before Peter at the pearly gates." Thus I wouldn't be so sure Jesus was trying to teach anything specific about the form in which judgement would occur.

Of course there's a second point to the story, which is really an attack on the Pharisees.. Luke 16:21 makes the point that you can't blame God for not being clear enough. Even Jesus' resurrection wasn't enough to convert some people.

Thank you for the observation. I really liked this post. I too agree that we are accountable to God for our lives.

 

[Episcoboi]

God bless your freedom to express yourself and to be able to explore what is and what is to come. There's usually no other way than to do this openly and be willing to entertain thoughts and reasonings that we do not at first embrace.


You receive that as a "parable". I hear the words of Jesus as "truth". In this case we are told of a certain man, two really and what happened to them. One spoke to Abraham, who was "alive". Usually the people who oppose the story of Lazarus and the rich man don't believe Abraham is currently cognizant. Jesus indicated that he was alive (although physically "dead"). One suffered and other did not. Have you ever heard any one burning be able to converse? Had them ask for a fingertip of water? Would that really help? Many things regarding our spiritual senses are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. They usually have a scriptural reference, but you apparently do not regard the scriptures the way I tend to, so what's the point of fishing for references?

I'm not trying to be critical, but what would be the point of Jesus tell us this "story" if it were not really true?

It is certain that no man fully understands the truth of the Bible and we allow for varying opinions (particularly here). I would just encourage you to consider them carefully without dismissing them as fable because in this case, we're talking about our final disposition. Wouldn't you agree that is pretty important?! I would guess that their isn't one person who is a Christian that would not share that sentiment. We just want to get it right, that's all. We don't want to be wrong in this case, because you see, so much is on the line and if we love each other, then we don't want to see anyone headed in the wrong direction. Just prayerfully consider this.

What's important here is that as God's creatures, sons and daughters, we are accountable based on our works or fruits for our eternal welfare, to suffer or to experience the joys of the Lord.

You can receive it that way if you wish, but although their is much symbolic language given (the language of visions), their are direct accounts and letters to the churches from the Lord Himself. The lake of fire is a final judgment where Hell and death end up. You can be as liberal as you want in your interpretation, but I would urge you to live your life as though it were literal, because it will be too late then to do anything about it. God's simply asking everyone to believe and obey so that it will be well with us. If the scripture is true and I believe it is, then it will be bad for those who do not do this.

There are many who are deceived. The Bible says that they are taken captive by the devil by his will. You think that I am deceived, but if that is true, then 90% of Christianity s ialso under this deception. (I would consider this a concern when everyone else is wrong) Consider it at least by simply believing it like a little child.

See what happens in your life! You can tell us your story. I'd be interested to hear it. Be blessed in your search for truth.

I refuse to believe in something just because of fear of reprisal or the possibility of eternal punishment in Hell. It is not a way to live life or to have a relationship with the Living God. That would be insincere. Plus, as hope said in Veggie Tales: An Easter Carol, "There is nothing left to fear. Nothing Heaven knows. For, He died for us to give us life, and to give us hope He rose."

 

[Alive_Again]

Do we really think that Abraham is going to judge us, and that the chief place in heaven is Abraham's bosom? These is from convention imagery, as if a modern Christian said "when the rich man came before Peter at the pearly gates." Thus I wouldn't be so sure Jesus was trying to teach anything specific about the form in which judgement would occur.

I don't think Abraham makes any determination (or Peter either). Abraham's Bosom was the part of Hades (specifically called "Paradise") by Jesus to the thief on the other cross. This is where "righteous" dead went before Jesus' resurrection. The wicked or "unrighteous" dead went to the part where the torment is. Jesus went and preached to the spirits of the "just" in "prison" after He died and took the keys to Hell, death, and the grave and having received Him, escorted them into Heaven's Paradise.

The importance of Abraham (I believe) is that (not only that he is living), but that his "children", those who had the faith of Abraham, endeavoring to walk in God's ways for their time, could be protected and set apart from the wicked dead, who's judgment is also righteous. Those OT "saints" are now in Heaven, and if we go, we'll see them when we get to Heaven.

 

[Alive_Again]

Thus I wouldn't be so sure Jesus was trying to teach anything specific about the form in which judgement would occur.

Why not? What else is there left in the story?

...someone who was prosperous in this life, but through selfishness will be judged in the next life, compared to the poor Lazarus, who looked worthless in this life but will be beloved by God in the next.

"Someone selfish being judged in the next life..."

The example Jesus Himself gave us for that judgment was torment in flames. That isn't specific about the form? If the disciples were hanging on the words of Jesus and all of a sudden he spoke of someone "living" in flames " after physical death, wouldn't that get your attention?

Lazarus being "beloved by God in the next" (world)...

He was being comforted across from a gulf, across from him were burning flames where people weren't burned up. They could talk and ask them to warn their families, so they wouldn't go there.

You could say that we learn from this account that:

1. People after physical death are aware of their new surroundings.
2. They have a spiritual body that has senses.
3. The righteous dead went to a place of comfort.
4. The Old Testament saints were there in that place of comfort.
5. No one entered into Heaven before Jesus set them free, and the resurrection.
6. The wicked "dead" were in a place of torment, visible but separate from the rest.
7. They could talk and the wicked begged for mercy.
8. They were not consumed by the flames, but rather they continued in them.
9. They didn't want their families to go there.
10. The power of a blind and deaf heart would prevent them from hearing & repenting from a message even from a "dead" person.

We are told these things so we will be warned.

You can receive this as a 1st Century fable or you can believe it to be true.

1) If it is just a fable, then we can believe God to be whatever we desire Him to be, thinking only of His goodness, or whatever concept of Him you hold to.

or...

2) If that it is true, spoken by Jesus Himself, and He warns us that we can choose to behave ourselves accordingly, receiving either reward for giving heed.

I thank God that we have the freedom (currently) to review and consider these things while we have the power of free choice. Don't you?

 

[Kylor]

I refuse to believe in something just because of fear of reprisal or the possibility of eternal punishment in Hell. It is not a way to live life or to have a relationship with the Living God. That would be insincere. Plus, as hope said in Veggie Tales: An Easter Carol, "There is nothing left to fear. Nothing Heaven knows. For, He died for us to give us life, and to give us hope He rose."

Agreed, scaring people to believe in something sounds kinda lame to me.

Alive_Again you seem to come here every week telling us what we should believe. Do you really think we are going to change our faith over the words of some guy on cf with no avatar?

Or if your just bored, check out guild wars 2. Amazing game. Or maybe a book that's not the bible but has good morale values? 3 little pigs is a classic!

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Alive_Again]

Agreed, scaring people to believe in something sounds kinda lame to me.

Wow! I'm just telling everyone what we have in Jesus' account. It is up to everyone to believe it or not. If "people" don't believe it, why are "people" offended by simply hearing and considering it?

Alive_Again you seem to come here every week telling us what we should believe. Do you really think we are going to change our faith over the words of some guy on cf with no avatar?

I'm rarely heard, and I don't tell people here what to believe, just like others supposedly don't tell me what to believe. People tell me what they believe and why, and I do likewise. I leave the possibility of free choice without condemnation. Others might extend that courtesy, even if they do not agree with it.

"People" don't need to look to me, just consider what we're given (for some at least as a possibility). Personally, even if a dead person came here preaching the fear of the Lord, I would not expect some to hear it.

If someone prefers "Veggie tales" for truth, then so be it. People get uptight to even hear the scripture as possibly being true because it offends them in some way. The same was true in Jesus' day. I'm just asking you to consider it in love (because the subject matter is pretty serious, wouldn't you agree?

Or if your just bored, check out guild wars 2. Amazing game. Or maybe a book that's not the bible but has good morale values? 3 little pigs is a classic!

Rewards in Heaven...good. It's sad that it comes at someone's expense.

 

[hedrick]

He was being comforted across from a gulf, across from him were burning flames where people weren't burned up. They could talk and ask them to warn their families, so they wouldn't go there.

I'm not sure that this matters, but he wasn't talking to the people in heaven, but to Father Abraham.

You could say that we learn from this account that:

1. People after physical death are aware of their new surroundings.
2. They have a spiritual body that has senses.
3. The righteous dead went to a place of comfort.
4. The Old Testament saints were there in that place of comfort.
5. No one entered into Heaven before Jesus set them free, and the resurrection.
6. The wicked "dead" were in a place of torment, visible but separate from the rest.
7. They could talk and the wicked begged for mercy.
8. They were not consumed by the flames, but rather they continued in them.
9. They didn't want their families to go there.
10. The power of a blind and deaf heart would prevent them from hearing & repenting from a message even from a "dead" person.

We are told these things so we will be warned.

I'm afraid you've learned the wrong lessons from this story. The point of the story is that the people who are prosperous in this life should beware, because they are going to be judged. And those who are suffering should take heart, for God will reward them. I.e. this is a dramatization of Luke 6:20-26.

Here's a summary of the meaning of this section from that well-known liberal author, John Calvin:

Though Luke introduces some things between them, there can be no doubt that this example was intended by Christ to confirm the discourse which we have last examined. He points out what condition awaits those who neglect the care of the poor, and indulge in all manner of gluttony; who give themselves up to drunkenness and other pleasures, and allow their neighbours to pine with hunger; nay, who cruelly kill with famine those whom they ought to have relieved, when the means of doing so were in their power. Some look upon it as a simple parable; but, as the name Lazarus occurs in it, I rather consider it to be the narrative of an actual fact. But that is of little consequence, provided that the reader comprehends the doctrine which it contains.

He also believes that this talks about judgement, but not in any literal way. After all "souls have neither fingers nor eyes, and are not liable to thirst, nor do they hold such conversations among themselves as are here described to have taken place between Abraham and the rich man ... On these subjects the words of Christ give us slender information, and in a manner which is fitted to restrain curiosity."

Alas, he doesn't seem to have taken quite enough precautions to restrain curiosity about the details of judgement.

 

[Alive_Again]

I'm not sure that this matters, but he wasn't talking to the people in heaven, but to Father Abraham.

I was saying that people were not "being burned up". They were not consumed by the flames, but they were tortured by them.

He also believes that this talks about judgement, but not in any literal way.

Jesus is the eternal Son of God. He spoke of what He saw with the Father. Why can't we take it literally? At least consider that what He said might actually be true.

After all "souls have neither fingers nor eyes, and are not liable to thirst, nor do they hold such conversations among themselves as are here

Your spirit man has a body with finger and tongues, etc. It appears very much like your physical body. The rich man recognized Lazarus and spoke regarding him to Abraham. From what Jesus told us (the living Word of God) and what He says we're supposed to be able to receive as the "gospel truth", they do have conversations.

I'm afraid you've learned the wrong lessons from this story. The point of the story is that the people who are prosperous in this life should beware, because they are going to be judged.

I receive it as instruction for those who do not fear God and love their fellow man. The judgment of man has a distinction and the wicked to everlasting torment (not a story or parable or allegory). We are told this to actually learn from it. The choice is yours though.

 

[Kylor]

What's with this guy mods?

All I see from him is trolololololol

Wwmc, but this isn't a debate/convert or die section.

If you want to debate, hit up theology or politics.

If you just want to fight, go to the singles section.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Alive_Again]

I'm not debating at all. I just submitted some scripture to you. There are those here who questioned me or commented to me directly, reasoning in their own minds, why certain things were written. I gave me them my opinion. You gave yours. The only difference is that you target me as a "troll". You'd like to put me out because of offer scripture for everyone to consider. The pharisees did this to Jesus.

It's a serious topic (Hell). It's worthy to at least consider what things are said and why. I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone, and you shouldn't brand me the transgressor. Actually others debated me on the matter if you want to use that term. I offer my take on the passage and I politely ask questions and politely talk about what I have learned from the passage in question. At least my entreaties for consideration of such a serious subject I do without a lot of insulting remarks.

 

[Kylor]

Yeah but you do this, day after day after day

How about you go help someone offline tomorrow and I will cut down on video games?

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[redblue22]

lol

 

[Alive_Again]

I'll be praying for you and my prayers are effectual. I pray that you are delivered from Buddhism. I'm also going to pray that the people on this section will have God deal with them on this most serious subject. I won't tell you what to believe, as I gave you scripture to consider. God knows what is truth and He knows what is true. I'm going to ask Him to start dealing with you all on how He sees things so that everyone will receive the warning He intended His people to receive.

If you don't believe in a literal Hell, then you have nothing to be concerned about do you? I leave the matter with you and in God's hands. I have no desire to fellowship with scoffers ( I only suggested that you consider the matter), but I do believe in the power of prayer and if I don't want to see you go to Hell, then it's better to defer the matter to the compelling power of God.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The Lord is in Texas.

Please., Texas holds closer to the Old Law then the New Covenant. Christians try to do away with the death penalty, and you all put an express lane on it. Texas is a big wad of hypocrisy where patriotism come first and God comes second.

 

[Kylor]

Alive again, what's with the blue text?

I'm guessing the bold text is for emphasis, but is the blue supposed to be like Holy Spirit words?

And it's people like you that "delivered" me from Christianity to Buddhism.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Alive_Again]

Texas is like every other place in the world. It has unsaved people in it. Among those who flock among Christians, it has its sheep and its goats.

It has people of different religions who are deceived and need Jesus to turn their lives around.

Texas also has a great move of God in it. One day, the greatest harvest ever known to man will take place. It will be all around you, and each person must decide whether to abandon their wicked fruit (and its accompanying inheritance) and submit their hearts to Jesus Christ, who will fill you with love.

The blue text is also for emphasis.

Just "by chance", someone on a another thread posted a link to someone's testimony who has seen Hell. For those who like horror movies, it shouldn't be too much to read into and consider. "A Divine Revelation of Hell"

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Texas is like every other place in the world. It has unsaved people in it. Among those who flock among Christians, it has its sheep and its goats.

It has people of different religions who are deceived and need Jesus to turn their lives around.

Texas also has a great move of God in it. One day, the greatest harvest ever known to man will take place. It will be all around you, and each person must decide whether to abandon their wicked fruit (and its accompanying inheritance) and submit their hearts to Jesus Christ, who will fill you with love.

The blue text is also for emphasis.

Just "by chance", someone on a another thread posted a link to someone's testimony who has seen Hell. For those who like horror movies, it shouldn't be too much to read into and consider. "A Divine Revelation of Hell"

A very Dante-esk version of a hell, that has been slammed by many christian scholars ,that actually know what the bible does say about hell.


Nowhere in the Jewish belief does this type of hell exist. Gehenna is a a place where the wicked go , and for a while they are purifiied and are allowed into heaven after a set period of time.
Gehenna was a term used to describe the litter dumps used to describe a period when the Jews would be given over to the powers of the world for disobeying God.

Sheol was considered as a region dark and deep, the Pit, and the Land of forgetfulness, where human beings descend after death.
There is generally no concept of judgment or reward and punishment attached to it. In fact, the books of the Torah, , insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free man. Job 3:11-19

Hell was not considered , in the Torah ,to be a place of eternal torment where satan and his minions resided and taunted and abused sinners.

I don't believe the christian literal hell, but I do believe that salvation comes to those who Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.. There are no commandments greater than this.