Liberal Back-Slider??

[ahab]

Hi Polycarp1,

Yes, I can't really decide myself on this

It gets quoted a lot though.

 

[apenman]

However, I still find this shocking warning very much less mercy over judgment on account of the goats as though we have a target to meet. If its 50/50 on mercy for the sheep and 50/50 on judgment on the goats, IMO therefore Jesus simply desires mercy over judgment rather than saying there will be mercy over judgment. Unless this passage has far more to it.

What do you think?

I say that the passage does have far more to it. The sheep and goats is the judgment of Christ, under the law of Christ, and mercy does triumph over judgment. To be a doer of the word is fulfill the law "love one another", it is to do what He said.

We are not saved by works, but the works are the proof of the faith, and without the works there is no faith, and without faith, no one is saved. There is no judgment based on "beliefs", the sheep and the goats is a "faith" based judgment, in which faith includes actions. If we have faith, we act on that faith, if there is no action, there is no faith.

The sheep and the goats should be viewed as the judgment of Christ, described in his own words. Once again I point out this scripture:

Matthew 7:16-23 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (NIV)

So, "by their fruit you will recognize them" which is the sheep and the goats. And, "not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven", so it isn't just an issue of "believing".

We are not going to see a beliefs based judgment, we are going to see a faith based judgment, and that is the sheep and the goats.

 

[apenman]

Don't try to pin down the sheep and goats any more clearly than what our Lord says -- the sheep are those who do His Will, treating others as if they were Him; the goats are those who do not. "Be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only" is, I think, relevant to the discussion.

This is correct, however, the sheep and the goats is still the judgment of Christ. What does it mean to do his will:

John 13:34, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (NIV)

To fulfill this command is what it means to be a doer of the word, and that is the sheep and the goats.

 

[ahab]

Hi apenman,



Yes I’m in agreement, I believe we are saved by grace to work. We are bought at a price 1 Cor 6&7. Anyone can say they believe and have faith but it can’t be true unless we live the life we are told, step out in faith and help others.

However that still boils down to separation for eternal life or eternal death based on when did we ever tell anyone of Jesus, when did we start to live holy lives, when did we help a poor person. That to me is still salvation by works.

 

[apenman]

Hi apenman,



Yes I’m in agreement, I believe we are saved by grace to work. We are bought at a price 1 Cor 6&7. Anyone can say they believe and have faith but it can’t be true unless we live the life we are told, step out in faith and help others.

However that still boils down to separation for eternal life or eternal death based on when did we ever tell anyone of Jesus, when did we start to live holy lives, when did we help a poor person. That to me is still salvation by works.

Revelation 22:12, "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done." (NIV)

What does he say?? He says, "I will give to 'everyone' according to what he has done." He does not say that he will give according to whether or not we have believed. We are saved by faith, but the works are the proof of the faith, they are either there, or not, period.

 

[ahab]

Hi apenman,



Yes it was Rev 22:12 that I was thinking of when I said our reward is for what we do, and I agree 100% the works are proof of faith but still leaves the question isn’t this salvation by works rather than grace and isnt this still judgement over mercy for those who call Jesus Lord? Perhaps not, perhaps faith and grace simply mean doing what Jesus commands and teaches us rather than just good works as we might see them.

 

[Inside Edge]

It sounds to me like splitting hairs. I like apenman's explanation: faith will produce works - one flows from the other. Salvation is by faith alone, and since faith will produce works, one can use the works as a gauge of faith. The works in and of themselves will not be the basis of salvation, except in the context that they show evidence of faith.

So it seems to me, because the two are so closely intertwined and because God's ability to judge is (assumed) perfect, we don't need to be too concerned about where one stops and the other begins.

 

[ahab]

Yes Amen!

 

[Dukey]

What exactly is a liberal back-slider??

I would have thought that it's either a liberal Christian who's now a universalist, or who is now a conservative. I obviously have no clue.

Or, is it a liberal who is questioning their beliefs??

I'm reading into this that they are back-sliden from a liberal position, or point of view.

a liberal backslider is a backslidden liberal....now what does that mean?....it depends on whos saying it