Liberal Back-Slider??

[Jazzman]

I don't think I agree with the polarisation of views. No matter whether a christian is Liberal or conservative (apart from maybe the extremes) they should still be regarded as a brother or sister in Christ.

 

[Kaonashi]

Take a glance at my signature and you will see that I am now a proud member of the Liberal Backslider Assocation of America! I am so glad to know that I actually fit in somewhere for once. Turtle Tracks Anyone?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I don't think I agree with the polarisation of views. No matter whether a christian is Liberal or conservative (apart from maybe the extremes) they should still be regarded as a brother or sister in Christ.

True, Jazzman, but unfortunately that's not the way it is, and liberals get beaten up by those who want everyone to think just like them, so they need a place to lick their wounds and also need a sense of solidarity with others like them.

Btw Kaonashi, don't you think you should give Martyn Joseph the credit for his lyrics?

 

[Merseymike]

Its nice to see a few more liberals posting here!!

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Nice to see you showing your face here, Mike.

 

[Jazzman]

But my point is is that misconceptions can arise from polarisation. I'm sure many Liberals get tired of being labeled as universalists who believe Jesus to be simply a symbolic character (ala Spong) and that mankind is sinless etc. when there core beliefs are still quite orthodox (which is often the case).

There are simmilar misconceptions about evangelicals. I attend an evangelical church and here are some points about it that one may not associate with evangelical churches.

> I have never heard a sermon which invloves condeming anyone to hell for not doing something right etc.
> While the bible is accepted as authorative on many areas of faith, it is not held as the completely perfect word of God.
> Third world debt, poverty, fair trade etc is always on the highest agenda and rarely a week goes by without some appeal or fundrasing event on such matters.
> The church has people from many walks of life and I can't see how it could be labeled as being 'non-inclusive'
>It is not hyped up with people speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor every week (probably because it is CofE).

Sure its not perfect, but its a decent, non-threatening church that many are comfortable in.

Though I do understand the 'licking of wounds' so to speak. I am on this particular forum because reckon I have more in common with the liberals here than the fundamentalists else where on this site.

 

[ladybrett1974]

Jazzman,

I see you're a Brit! I am willing to bet that your idea of conservative and my idea of conservative, being from Texas and all, are two completely different things. I have been to mainstream conservative churches where I have been told that all kinds of people are going to hell....and i would be too unless I changed my ways and quit what I was doing and quit hanging with the "sinners". I envy the fact that your idea of conservative is SO NICE. Lucky.

 

[apenman]

But my point is is that misconceptions can arise from polarisation. I'm sure many Liberals get tired of being labeled as universalists who believe Jesus to be simply a symbolic character (ala Spong) and that mankind is sinless etc. when there core beliefs are still quite orthodox (which is often the case).

There are simmilar misconceptions about evangelicals. I attend an evangelical church and here are some points about it that one may not associate with evangelical churches.

> I have never heard a sermon which invloves condeming anyone to hell for not doing something right etc.
> While the bible is accepted as authorative on many areas of faith, it is not held as the completely perfect word of God.
> Third world debt, poverty, fair trade etc is always on the highest agenda and rarely a week goes by without some appeal or fundrasing event on such matters.
> The church has people from many walks of life and I can't see how it could be labeled as being 'non-inclusive'
>It is not hyped up with people speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor every week (probably because it is CofE).

Sure its not perfect, but its a decent, non-threatening church that many are comfortable in.

Though I do understand the 'licking of wounds' so to speak. I am on this particular forum because reckon I have more in common with the liberals here than the fundamentalists else where on this site.

Sounds like a good church.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Jazzman, your church sounds a lot like my church, even though we're Baptists. They're even members of the EA, but I'd say they're on the liberal end of evangelical. Also, as Ladybrett says, what passes for conservative here in the UK would seem fairly liberal in the US.

I think one disadvantage of discussion boards is that, probably for the sake of a lively discussion, the issues seem to be polarised.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

I think the liberals have a different priority to the one given in the scriptures. The gospel is to be the people of God and honour God with all areas of our lives then we can tell of the gospel and show it by looking after the poor.

I was brought up not to swear and still don't, but Martyn and other "liberal backsliders" have helped me adopt a different point of view about it. I think Martyn decided to do so because he felt it helped him to identify with a certain type of person who was alienated from the church by self-righteous and disapproving attitudes found there.

What an amazing statement. Should we follow Jesus or what Martyn has decided? Also doesn’t the scripture indicate that we are only made righteous through and by Jesus? Rom 3:10, Rom 5, “Since we have now been justified by his blood” Titus 3:5 “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,”

 

[ahab]

Hi UberLutharian,

I gave myself permission to examine my beliefs, to think things through, to discard beliefs which I knew did not work (even if they were "Scriptural"), and to adopt new beliefs as necessary.

My ability to show compassion to others

What do you mean by ‘beliefs’ I don’t understand. Surely when we believe in Jesus we start a process where we follow Him. When we believe it leads us to repentance, baptism, the Holy Spirit, renewal gifts and ultimately obedience to all Jesus commands us to obey. Jesus says that if we love Him we will obey all He commanded and taught. I thought 'backslider' meant starting to slip back into what we used to be before we were renewed. I suspect 'liberal backslider' means those who believe we should slip back into what we were before were saved.

 

[praying]

So I’ll be asking for forgiveness then until the day I die
Though I can’t be sure of what I’ve done I think I’d better try
Thank God you’re not the jury, thank God I’m not the judge
Here’s to a bigger picture, here’s to the bigger love!

I like this verse and isn't that the truth about who is the jury and the judge.

 

[ahab]

So I’ll be asking for forgiveness then until the day I die

Though I can’t be sure of what I’ve done I think I’d better try

Thank God you’re not the jury, thank God I’m not the judge

Here’s to a bigger picture, here’s to the bigger love!

I like this verse and isn't that the truth about who is the jury and the judge.

You see I don’t see this a the bigger picture but the lesser picture. Surely God is the judge, I don’t think anyone is disputing that. Surely we must seek forgiveness as without it we can’t receive the forgiveness Jesus has already gained on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Surely if we are backsliding then we are not seeking forgiveness. Surely if we have decided what we should and what we need not do to follow Christ, such as swearing, then we have become judge and jury of Jesus words.
The bigger picture of love is that man isn’t love, God is love.

 

[Polycarp1]

Hi UberLutharian,





What do you mean by ‘beliefs’ I don’t understand. Surely when we believe in Jesus we start a process where we follow Him. When we believe it leads us to repentance, baptism, the Holy Spirit, renewal gifts and ultimately obedience to all Jesus commands us to obey. Jesus says that if we love Him we will obey all He commanded and taught. I thought 'backslider' meant starting to slip back into what we used to be before we were renewed. I suspect 'liberal backslider' means those who believe we should slip back into what we were before were saved.

"Liberal backslider" is ironic about what people with judgmental conservative attitudes would think of his stance.

Yes, one should repent and be led to forswear one's sins. The problem is when one presumes to forswear others' sins for them. Before my conversion experience, I was a devout little "churchian" who was convinced that one need only "follow the rules" -- apparently just because they were "the rules." But when God convicted me and called me to follow Him, I found that my sins were such as to condemn me, and that His free forgiveness of them challenged me to love and serve Him to the best of my ability. And if He could and did forgive me -- then by the Golden Rule, I must grant His forgiveness to others and not seek to judge who and what they were.

I know your perspective on morality is quite different than mine. And I know where I got mine from, and, with all due respect to a brother in Christ, you will never convince me otherwise -- His love is beyond anything I can describe, and if He chooses to forgive and love any of us, it's incumbent on us to do likewise to our fellow man.

Peace.

 

[praying]

Hi Poly

When I posted in this thread and saw your response I thought where has Polycarp been I haven't read one of his thoughtful posts in a while.


Merry Christmas!!

 

[ahab]

Hi Polycarp1,

"Liberal backslider" is ironic about what people with judgmental conservative attitudes would think of his stance.

Except that if the judgment belongs to Jesus then it must be what He says we will be judged on. When it comes to some of things that are mentioned we should be fairly confident of what is right and wrong.

Yes, one should repent and be led to forswear one's sins. The problem is when one presumes to forswear others' sins for them.

Except that I dont think we can forswear others sins for them can we? IMO legalism and license only rear their ugly heads when someone says we can or we cant do something. We can't be free from condemnation in Christ Jesus if we don’t know what the condemnation we are free from, is! And we cant be in Christ Jesus if we don’t know or aren’t living His words by His Spirit?

I am not aware of any golden rule of forgiveness above any of the other commands of Jesus. The more we obey all that Jesus commanded and taught the more we love Him. John 14 & 15, Acts 4 etc.

His love is beyond anything I can describe, and if He chooses to forgive and love any of us, it's incumbent on us to do likewise to our fellow man.

How can your perspective on morality be any different from mine when I also see that God so loved the world that He sent His Son Jesus and that Christ died for me whilst I was still a sinner and so I must love as Jesus has loved me and must forgive others as Jesus has forgiven me or I will not be forgiven my sins. I don’t think this is in dispute, what is in dispute is what we are by the power of the Holy Spirit and the word, free not to do. If we are focussed on sins we wont get very far but if we are focussed on Jesus we wont do the sins He tells us not to do, and when we do slip up He always forgives by what he has done once and for all on the cross.

 

[Polycarp1]

Hi Polycarp1,



Except that if the judgment belongs to Jesus then it must be what He says we will be judged on. When it comes to some of things that are mentioned we should be fairly confident of what is right and wrong.

Yep. Except:
[bible]Matthew 7:1-2[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 25:31-46[/bible]

I think Jesus makes quite clear in those passages what it is that He will judge us on.

I am not aware of any golden rule of forgiveness above any of the other commands of Jesus.

[bible]Matthew 7:12[/bible]

He only classifies three things as "comprising all the Law and the Prophets" -- the two Great Commandments and the Golden Rule.

It's quite possible to construe other passages of the Bible as directing us to do otherwise than what we can infer from Jesus's commandments. But I think that has to be considered erroneous construction. Take the people Paul says to ostracize in I Corinthians. He was writing to a small Christian community in a city notorious for its licentiousness -- not to churches comprising the majority in a free democratic nation. Just as his directives regarding women's hair in that same letter are to be read in the context of what a woman's uncovered, free-flowing hair were supposed to suggest to those seeing her, not as divinely-ordained ukases regarding women's hair in all times and places, so too are we to regard the particular avoidances taught there as meaning something for that time and place, not that we, in the majority and with authority, should condemn and cast out people who are no more and no less sinners than we ourselves.

Be merciful, and you will obtain mercy. Be judgmental, and you too will be judged. Try to love as Christ loved, and He too will love you. Be self-righteous as were the scribes and Pharisees, and He will count you among them.

The divine justice is integrated with the divine mercy -- the conservatives had that one right. But how it's applied is that He judges according to how we judge. As I hope for His mercy and forgiveness, it's incumbent on me therefore to extend mercy and forgiveness. Because standing on my own righteousness is like standing on a banana peel covered in teflon and ice.

 

[ahab]

Hi PolyCArp1,



Except Matthew 7:1-2 was one of the verses I was thinking of when I said we can’t judge others and that if we don’t forgive others their sins then God wont forgive us our sins. So I would agree that we never hold grudges and vengeance against others. As to Matt 25:31- I never said it wasn’t judgment. The problem most people have with this passage is it seems based on works to eternal life and failure of works to eternal death. You do believe in eternal life for some and eternal death for others I presume. IMO however this is about how disciples who tell of the message are treated. Like Matt 11.

Also Matt 7:12 doesn’t mean that we don’t love God first and honour Him with our lives, before we love others. Jesus says to the teachers of the law that they had “neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” It is indeed quite possible to do the opposite and assume that we can recognize what is important and dispense with the rest, but there are two greatest commandments, the second is like the first, but the first is to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ To backslide is to start not obeying all that Jesus commanded by selecting which what we think we don’t need to try and do and trying to justify it.

Also Paul encouraged and ostracized all the churches he wrote to, not just the church at Corinth. Also what are you talking about casting out and condemning each other. Surely Paul tells us to rebuke and correct according to the gospel we are given (by him and the other NT apostles and disciple) and not to quarrel 2 Tim 2:24, but to disassociate from some 1 Cor 5, 2 Thess 3:14. Gal 1

Surely self- righteouness is saying that we are better than someone else or good enough to be accepted? Speaking the truth that no-one is good enough except through Jesus is not self righteousness. Jesus is our righteouness Rom 5:19, Titus 3:5 “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. The righteous live by faith in Jesus Gal 3



How we are judged according to the gospel and how the gospel convicts us of our sin and His truth and life are two different things. The truth is still the truth even if we find it convicts us and so we find it judgmental.

 

[tulc]

[move]Hi Polycarp!!!! [/move]

tulc(who's missed you a lot!!)

 

[apenman]

The sheep and the goats is the judgment of Christ.