LHC Discovers the Universe was once Liquid

[juvenissun]

You realise that by doing this, you acknowledge that you're wrong, don't you? Either a) herbs can't be shown to do anything, so you're wrong, or b) herbs can be shown to something, which makes them scientific, which makes you wrong.


The debate is to ascertain truth. 'Winning' is not important, at least not to me.

So. You admit (or lie) here that you have no evidence or supporting documentation that 'alternative' medicine actually works. Why, then, did you claim to know it works?


If you have no reason, evidence or support, why did you claim you knew it worked?

Because I know it works.

Your argument gets boring. You do not get the point.

 

[Exial]

Because I know it works.

Your argument gets boring. You do not get the point.

You "know" it works, yet you cannot show us how it works, tell us how it works, or provide any evidence that suggests it works. Do you have any idea how stupid and stubborn you sound?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because I know it works.

So you keep saying, but you also said you have no evidence, support, or reason to justify such knowledge. So I put it to you that, in fact, you don't know it works. You believe it works, and your belief is groundless.

Your argument gets boring. You do not get the point.

You made a claim.
You have failed to support that claim, and, in fact, have even admitted that your claim is utterly baseless.
So what 'point' am I missing? By your own admission, you have no reason to believe 'alternative' medicine works, yet you believe it anyway. Perhaps you've have personal experience, believing that some cure you experienced was due to 'alternative' medicine - if only that were enough, eh.

 

[juvenissun]

You "know" it works, yet you cannot show us how it works, tell us how it works, or provide any evidence that suggests it works. Do you have any idea how stupid and stubborn you sound?

Not at all.

I know it works because I know examples. But I do not know how to show it to you. You can read newspapers, you may interview people. That is the best you can do to find out. I said many times, it is not scientific. What do you expect?

You people makes me feel you are S...D!

 

[ug333]

Not at all.

I know it works because I know examples. But I do not know how to show it to you. You can read newspapers, you may interview people. That is the best you can do to find out. I said many times, it is not scientific. What do you expect?

You people makes me feel you are S...D!

If there are people who have been helped, and it is at a rate higher than a placebo, don't you think a simple experiment would show that? That would be scientific.

BTW, this has been done for many alternative treatments. It hasn't turned out very well for most of them.

 

[rockaction]

Not at all.

I know it works because I know examples. But I do not know how to show it to you. You can read newspapers, you may interview people. That is the best you can do to find out. I said many times, it is not scientific. What do you expect?

You people makes me feel you are S...D!

What do I expect? Randomized controlled trials. It's how we find out if something works or not.

 

[sublime911]

2 Peter 3v5: 'For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water'


They could have saved millions by just opening a Bible because it's all there, everything true in modern science is there.[/SIZE]

I sincerely hope you are trolling.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Not at all.

I know it works because I know examples. But I do not know how to show it to you. You can read newspapers, you may interview people. That is the best you can do to find out. I said many times, it is not scientific. What do you expect?

We expect genuine data, not third-hand anecdotes, unverifiable eye-witness reports, and uncontrolled trials. Given the massive amount of annual miracles that bit invariably get either refuted or rescinded, and the massive amount of alleged miracles cures that utterly utterly fail to stand up to scrutiny (homoeopathy, acupuncture, etc), can you blame us for being sceptical when someone like you comes along and declares, in no uncertain terms, that they KNOW, absolutely KNOW, that 'alternative' medicine works?

You people makes me feel you are S...D!

I know of no swear word that begins with S and ends with D. Well, I do, but none that are pertinent...

 

[juvenissun]

If there are people who have been helped, and it is at a rate higher than a placebo, don't you think a simple experiment would show that? That would be scientific.

BTW, this has been done for many alternative treatments. It hasn't turned out very well for most of them.

No. In most cases, a rigorous test would show some ingredients that would possibly help. But that is all and that is the end. No drug company has ever taken them seriously.

I have a favorite herb prescription which cure my early cold symptoms better than any other medicine. It is very commonly available through mail order. But no doctor would recommend it, because it is not FDA approved and it has not been analyzed by any certified laboratories. It fixed my cold (I guess it kills? the virus) pretty quickly. But it does not work as well for my wife. As a result, I do not recommend it to people.

 

[juvenissun]

We expect genuine data, not third-hand anecdotes, unverifiable eye-witness reports, and uncontrolled trials. Given the massive amount of annual miracles that bit invariably get either refuted or rescinded, and the massive amount of alleged miracles cures that utterly utterly fail to stand up to scrutiny (homoeopathy, acupuncture, etc), can you blame us for being sceptical when someone like you comes along and declares, in no uncertain terms, that they KNOW, absolutely KNOW, that 'alternative' medicine works?


I know of no swear word that begins with S and ends with D. Well, I do, but none that are pertinent...

No. It is your choice not to try it. But some people tried. To some of them, they experienced something good which you do not care about because there is no stupid evidence.

 

[Delphiki]

YEAH! Evidence is STUPID! To heck with reality!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No. It is your choice not to try it. But some people tried. To some of them, they experienced something good which you do not care about because there is no stupid evidence.

Whoever said I don't care? The whole point of this discussion is to see if there are better ways to help people. But, of course, you only care about winning the debate - you've even admitted that you would lie to do so.

In any case, while I don't doubt that some people who engage in 'alternative' medicine experience some relief, that doesn't mean it works - just that there is a mild psychological placebo effect at work. This is well documented, and exists regardless of what method you pick, be it acupuncture, homoeopathy, etc.

So why do we treat these things with such scorn, if they occasionally confer some mild relief? Surely that, if nothing else, is a good thing?
Well, sadly, these sick people are being conned out of their money (I could sell bottles of tap water for 50p as 'homoeopathic', and confer the same benefit that these £500 'genuine' homoeopathic remedies give), their time (when you need an intense course of chemotherapy, it doesn't help to be rushing back and forth to your chiropractor), and, in the most appaling of cases, our of genuine medicine.

The last point is most troubling. If people want to waste their time and money on bottles of water that are demonstrably just a placebo, be my guest.
But I take issue with 'alternative' medicine quacks who encourage the old and the inform to stop using conventional medicine. People are conned into spending their time listening to whale music, fasting, and drinking water, to try and cure their aggressive cancer - and, surprisingly, they die.

If you want to drink homoeopathic water while you have your chemo, fine. It won't harm you. But to take such water instead of your chemo is going to kill you. And encouraging someone to get off chemo is tantamount to murder.

 

[Targ]

The last point is most troubling. If people want to waste their time and money on bottles of water that are demonstrably just a placebo, be my guest.

But I take issue with 'alternative' medicine quacks who encourage the old and the inform to stop using conventional medicine. People are conned into spending their time listening to whale music, fasting, and drinking water, to try and cure their aggressive cancer - and, surprisingly, they die.

If you want to drink homoeopathic water while you have your chemo, fine. It won't harm you. But to take such water instead of your chemo is going to kill you. And encouraging someone to get off chemo is tantamount to murder.

Could not agree more. Take this news story from mid-last year for example:

Parents guilty of manslaughter over daughter's eczema death

Cases like that disgust me.

 

[juvenissun]

Whoever said I don't care? The whole point of this discussion is to see if there are better ways to help people. But, of course, you only care about winning the debate - you've even admitted that you would lie to do so.

In any case, while I don't doubt that some people who engage in 'alternative' medicine experience some relief, that doesn't mean it works - just that there is a mild psychological placebo effect at work. This is well documented, and exists regardless of what method you pick, be it acupuncture, homoeopathy, etc.

So why do we treat these things with such scorn, if they occasionally confer some mild relief? Surely that, if nothing else, is a good thing?
Well, sadly, these sick people are being conned out of their money (I could sell bottles of tap water for 50p as 'homoeopathic', and confer the same benefit
that these £500 'genuine' homoeopathic remedies give), their time (when you need an intense course of chemotherapy, it doesn't help to be rushing back and forth to your chiropractor), and, in the most appaling of cases, our of genuine medicine.

The last point is most troubling. If people want to waste their time and money on bottles of water that are demonstrably just a placebo, be my guest.

But I take issue with 'alternative' medicine quacks who encourage the old and the inform to stop using conventional medicine. People are conned into spending their time listening to whale music, fasting, and drinking water, to try and cure their aggressive cancer - and, surprisingly, they die.

If you want to drink homoeopathic water while you have your chemo, fine. It won't harm you. But to take such water instead of your chemo is going to kill you. And encouraging someone to get off chemo is tantamount to murder.

Would you mind to check a Bible verse? Proverbs 19:13.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Would you mind to check a Bible verse? Proverbs 19:13.

Proverbs 19:13 - "A foolish child is a father’s ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is like the constant dripping of a leaky roof".

You advocate 'treatments' that you admit have never been shown to work, that cause unnecessary deaths from treatable conditions, and your retort is a smug expression and a kitsch Bible verse.

It disgusts me that you would be so glib and flippant in the face of the murder of children.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Liquid? I'll have milk and three sweetex in mine please.

 

[Psudopod]

I have a favorite herb prescription which cure my early cold symptoms better than any other medicine. It is very commonly available through mail order. But no doctor would recommend it, because it is not FDA approved and it has not been analyzed by any certified laboratories. It fixed my cold (I guess it kills? the virus) pretty quickly. But it does not work as well for my wife. As a result, I do not recommend it to people.

So how do you know it's the herb that is having an effect, rather than say a placebo reaction?

 

[juvenissun]

So how do you know it's the herb that is having an effect, rather than say a placebo reaction?

In average, I catch cold once or twice an year. I have at least 20 years experience on that herb. I may not be smart, but I am not that dumb. I learned that if I take it with an approx. 12-hour delay, then it will not work.

I appreciate the beauty of herbs because it is almost tailored for individuals. There is no instruction, and no data (only heresies). One simply has to try to find out the trick. Fortunately, they are thousand-year old formula, and the worst could happen is that it does not work.

The only herbs I refuse to try are those with yucky insects in the ingredient. My wife loves one of them because it stops her allergic skin rash within 6 hours. The dried insect looks like fat cockroach.

 

[Exial]

Not at all.

I know it works because I know examples. But I do not know how to show it to you. You can read newspapers, you may interview people. That is the best you can do to find out. I said many times, it is not scientific. What do you expect?

You people makes me feel you are S...D!

How can it not be scientific? You can either show it works via an experiment or you cannot. If you cannot, it does not work.

You have been wasting time and energy on herbs which actually, do no better than a placebo.

 

[ug333]

In average, I catch cold once or twice an year. I have at least 20 years experience on that herb. I may not be smart, but I am not that dumb. I learned that if I take it with an approx. 12-hour delay, then it will not work.

I appreciate the beauty of herbs because it is almost tailored for individuals. There is no instruction, and no data (only heresies). One simply has to try to find out the trick. Fortunately, they are thousand-year old formula, and the worst could happen is that it does not work.

The only herbs I refuse to try are those with yucky insects in the ingredient. My wife loves one of them because it stops her allergic skin rash within 6 hours. The dried insect looks like fat cockroach.

Excellent, so keep a journal in detail when you take them. Then let your wife swap out your herbs with a placebo and not let you know, and she can write down when she does that.

Or don't, and understand that you COULD be spending money on a useless herb just to get a placebo effect (and maybe a little cherry picking). And more importantly, please don't tell other people that you KNOW this herb works for you, because you don't.