Levitucus - all or none?

[ahab]

Hi tattedsaint,

i get tired of hearing Christians saying, "Jesus fulfilled the law!"

But I get tired of people saying "loving homosexual monogamous relationships" which Jesus didnt say, He did however say that He fulfilled the law Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

So I like to hear what Jesus did say and teach.

Peace

 

[jsw_24]

post

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Post Toasties?
Had em for breakfast.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

you break one commandment, you break them all.

Christians should stop even talking about the Old Law, because we don't adhere strictly to Old Law, so those Christians that say the Old Law is important but don't follow ALL of the Old Law, is just playing the game to me. no offense intended. you either do it, or you don't. there is no if ands or buts in this matter.

i don't follow the old Levitical Law. i believe the Old Law was something good though. i believe it was a law for a culture that was seeking God, and that was their Enlightenment, their place with God, at that time. that has to be respected and honored, for these are the Old Jews. i believe it has great meanings. but i do not believe however, that the Old Levitical Law is meant for today, so i don't adhere to it.

i get tired of hearing Christians saying, "Jesus fulfilled the law!" but go and quote verses from Paul that talk abou the Old Law to try to bridge some gap to comfort them in this issue. those that believe in Jesus fail to remember that Jesus was talking to Jews, not Gentiles. how can a Gentiles understand the Old Judaic Law, without converting over to Judaism? it's impossible. so why would Jesus tell Gentiles to follow the Old Law? you can't be both, it's either one way or the other. we can have all the understanding, and have all the ideas in our heads to help us clear out the difference, but we shouldn't be trying to be jumping to one side of the fence or the other, to play it safe. either you follow all the Old Law, you don't. if you fail in one area, you fail the whole thing. no exscuses, or theological excuses.

This was an excellent summary!

 

[Im_A]

Hi tattedsaint,

But I get tired of people saying "loving homosexual monogamous relationships" which Jesus didnt say, He did however say that He fulfilled the law Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

So I like to hear what Jesus did say and teach.

Peace

well my question is, why are you so worried about "loving homosexual monogamous relationships" if you aren't a homosexual yourself? why is this so important to your faith? i've seen your posts on this topic. i thought this was more about the old law, not the homosexual issue.

i'm not the one to even talk about this issue. but whether or not God deems/blesses it, there are loving, monoagamous homosexual relationships out there. two people, loving each other, and only each other, is a loving monoagamous relationship, no matter if it is straight, or homosexual. it's up to God to bless it, and i have no play in that judgement. but whether or not God blesses it or not, there are still homosexual couples who love each other and only each other. why do you think there is a such a need from them to marry each other?

if you don't believe God blesses loving, monogamous homosexual relationship, because it is homosexual, do you believe God blesses loving, monogamous, pagan heterosexual relationships? what is the difference here to you? do you believe God only blesses Chrisitan heterosexual relationships? do you believe only real love can be shared between Christian heterosexual relationships? i don't understand why this homosexual agenda is so important to you, especially if you aren't homosexual yourself. God Bless!

 

[peepnklown]

DW

I think we got side tracked.

I wasn’t talking about that law.

There are more than one laws in LEV, I asked for a scripture that tells which law to follow and which law to throw away.

 

[Im_A]

DW

I think we got side tracked.

I wasn’t talking about that law.

There are more than one laws in LEV, I asked for a scripture that tells which law to follow and which law to throw away.

and you will find no scriptures to answer your question because it is clearly shown in scriptures that you break one of them, you break them all.

 

[D.W.]

DW

I think we got side tracked.

I wasn’t talking about that law.

There are more than one laws in LEV, I asked for a scripture that tells which law to follow and which law to throw away.

Shalom peepnklown,

Thank you for clarifying that, I don't believe that anywhere does it say that we are to throw away any of G-d's decrees. Jesus tells us the laws are still in effect, not to mention G-d would not allow his messenger to change his laws anyway.

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[Im_A]

Shalom peepnklown,

Thank you for clarifying that, I don't believe that anywhere does it say that we are to throw away any of G-d's decrees. Jesus tells us the laws are still in effect, not to mention G-d would not allow his messenger to change his laws anyway.

G-d Bless,
Dan

pardon me here, but how do you explain Jesus breaking so many of the laws? what does it actually mean to say that Jesus fulfilled the laws? is that only a theological comment that Jesus fulfilled the consequence of the law, or does it mean that He literally fulfilled the laws? Jesus's disciples did like him, which means, if i am not correct, His disciples did exactly the same as Him as in this area. for isn't it said in the Gospels that the Pharisees accused Jesus and His disciples of such things?

 

[D.W.]

pardon me here, but how do you explain Jesus breaking so many of the laws? what does it actually mean to say that Jesus fulfilled the laws? is that only a theological comment that Jesus fulfilled the consequence of the law, or does it mean that He literally fulfilled the laws? Jesus's disciples did like him, which means, if i am not correct, His disciples did exactly the same as Him as in this area. for isn't it said in the Gospels that the Pharisees accused Jesus and His disciples of such things?

Shalom ts,

This is a misconception by many Christians, Jesus knew the Laws better than those who accused him. Who actually says that Jesus fulfilled the law, Jesus says it was not fulfilled.

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[Im_A]

Shalom ts,

This is a misconception by many Christians, Jesus knew the Laws better than those who accused him. Who actually says that Jesus fulfilled the law, Jesus says it was not fulfilled.

G-d Bless,
Dan

i know that Jesus knew the law. as it is said, He studied the law as a child, and even taught the priests as a child.

and i see what your saying about it not being fulfilled. Jesus said, "I CAME to fulfill the law." but i also agree with many others, especially the jews that Jesus did break the laws. to me Jesus seems like a liberal of his day. and i'm not meaning to use the words of Christ against Him. it's just, Jesus came to fulfill the law. He died on the cross, rose from the grave, ascended to heaven, so now, today the law is fulfilled.

i just have a hard time seeing the laws are still in use today. we dont' see Christians doing it, we don't even see Jews doing it, but i only know very little about the Jews, but even there, there seems to be contradictions with the Old Law to me.

so i am set on those laws being for that culture at that time. it was the revelation of God to that people. we are Gentiles, and it's hard for us Gentiles to see the old law being meant to be used today. at least that's my opinion. God Bless you!

 

[D.W.]

i know that Jesus knew the law. as it is said, He studied the law as a child, and even taught the priests as a child.

and i see what your saying about it not being fulfilled. Jesus said, "I CAME to fulfill the law." but i also agree with many others, especially the jews that Jesus did break the laws. to me Jesus seems like a liberal of his day. and i'm not meaning to use the words of Christ against Him. it's just, Jesus came to fulfill the law. He died on the cross, rose from the grave, ascended to heaven, so now, today the law is fulfilled.

i just have a hard time seeing the laws are still in use today. we dont' see Christians doing it, we don't even see Jews doing it, but i only know very little about the Jews, but even there, there seems to be contradictions with the Old Law to me.

so i am set on those laws being for that culture at that time. it was the revelation of God to that people. we are Gentiles, and it's hard for us Gentiles to see the old law being meant to be used today. at least that's my opinion. God Bless you!

Shalom ts,

Where do you see that Jesus broke the laws because I am not able to see this? Be careful with what Jews you wish to believe. Some will leave out a lot of the truth because they do not want no one to have knowledge of Jesus that makes any sense. That is an anti missionaries mission.

For instance they will try to make it look like Jesus broke the law when he actually did those things that are within the law. His knowledge of the Law protected him from those accusations.

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[The Thadman]

The following was suggested when I made a refercence from Leviticus.


So who says we are to love our neighbour as ourselves, Lev 19:18 and a man must not lie with a another man as with a woman? Lev 18:22, 20;13
And who says who says a man can lie with another man Lev 18:22, 20:13 and we dont have to love our neighbour as ourselves? Lev 19:18

Personally I look to Jesus as the fulfillment of the law, but that isnt the point that was made to me.

what do people think?

I believe, in order to be honest and consistent, one must keep it all. No picking and choosing.

Jesus, himself said he came not to destroy it, but fulfill it. Not to do away with it, but to uphold it (as not one jot or tittle will pass from it until heaven and earth pass away). At least within the Gospel accounts, there is not one instance where he breaks the Biblical Torah or encourages anyone to break the Torah (however, there are many and numerous accounts where he breaks Rabbinic Oral Torah, with things such as what constitutes the Sabbath, washing hands before meals, offerings, healing, and many others).

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Im_A]

not meaning to harp on grammatics, but the definition of fulfill is:

1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform. See Synonyms at satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.

i guess it depends on which definition of fulfill you choose to believe in, and that will give your theological opinion on this matter.

 

[flautist]

Short Answer: None.

Jesus himself said that the law is fulfilled in two commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Leveticus does not matter. If we simply follow those two commandments, then we will be following the Law of God, and that includes all the most important parts of Leveticus. (ie loving your neighbor, as I believe ahab has mentioned. )

 

[angela 2]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. We are saved by faith in him not by keeping any law. It's faith, not works, folks.

 

[D.W.]

I believe, in order to be honest and consistent, one must keep it all. No picking and choosing.

Jesus, himself said he came not to destroy it, but fulfill it. Not to do away with it, but to uphold it (as not one jot or tittle will pass from it until heaven and earth pass away). At least within the Gospel accounts, there is not one instance where he breaks the Biblical Torah or encourages anyone to break the Torah (however, there are many and numerous accounts where he breaks Rabbinic Oral Torah, with things such as what constitutes the Sabbath, washing hands before meals, offerings, healing, and many others).

Peace!
-Steve-o

Shalom Steve-o,

I don’t know that he broke Rabbinical law at all, he knew the law so well that when they ask him about washing the hands of the apostles he turned it back on them, he did not say that his followers were right to not wash their hands. Instead he ask the accusers about taking care of their parents. This is done much the same way as when the woman at the well was brought before him. He did not say that she was right or wrong, instead he told the people to look at their own sins to which they needed to right.

G-d Bless,

Dan

 

[Steve Petersen]

'Fulfill' the Law is a Hebrew idiom, used many times in Rabbinical writings; it means 'to do' most often:

Midrash
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Midrash Rabbah - Exodus 30:22

22. Another explanation of NOW THESE ARE THE ORDINANCES. Both the heathen and Israel have judges, and you do not know what difference there is between both. It can be compared to a sick man whose doctor paid him a visit and then said to the family: ' Give him to eat whatever he wants.' When he came to the other, he left word: ' Take care not to let him eat that and that thing.' When he was asked, `The first, thou didst allow to eat whatever he wishes, and the second, thou didst forbid certain things,' his reply was: `The first has no chance of recovering; for this reason did I allow him to eat what he fancies; but the second will yet live and therefore did I command strict caution in his diet.' Similarly the heathen have judges, but neither study the Torah nor fulfil it, as it says, Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live (Ezek.XX, 25),1 but with regard to the commandments it says, Which if a man do, he shall live by them (Lev. XVIII, 5).

Exodus Rabbah 40:1

R. Hoshaya said: Anyone who has knowledge but lacks the fear of sin, really has nothing, just as a carpenter who has no tools with him is not a real carpenter; because the bolts which guard learning are the fear of sin, as it says, And the fear of the Lord is its treasure-house (Isa. XXXIII, 6). R. Johanan said: If one knows the Torah but does not fulfil it, it were better for him that he had not been born,

Numbers Rabbah 3:12

He was called Kohath for this reason: You read: If the iron be blunt (Eccl. X, 10), which means, if you perceive that the heavens have become `blunt' and refuse to send down rain, having become like iron- as you read: 'And I will make your heaven as iron'-be assured that it is as a punishment for the non-observance of the Torah; for it is written, And one do not whet the edge (ib.), that is, because they did not fulfil the commandments of the Torah which was given to them by God face to face-as you read, The Lord spoke with you face to face, etc. (Deut. V, 4)

Numbers Rabbah 11:1
The wise shall inherit honour (Prov. III, 35) applies to Israel who are called wise when they fulfil the Torah and the commandments; as it says, Observe therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding, etc. (Deut. IV, 6)

Deuteronomy Rabbah 1:21

The Rabbis say: Moses declared before God: `Master of the Universe, just because the Gentiles have not been commanded to observe the Sabbath, wilt Thou show favour to them if they do observe it?' God replied to him: ' Do you really fear this? By your life, even if they fulfil all the commandments in the Torah, yet will I cause them to fall before you.' Whence this? Because the text says, BEHOLD, I HAVE BEGUN TO DELIVER UP BEFORE THEE.

Deuteronomy Rabbah 7:4

TO OBSERVE TO DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS (XXVIII, 1). R. Simeon b. Halafta said: If one learns the words of the Torah and does not fulfil them, his punishment is more severe than that of him who has not learnt at all.

Deuteronomy Rabbah 11:6

Halachah: When a Jew goes up to read the Law, he is not permitted to commence reading it before he has recited the blessings. First he must recite the blessings and then he reads. And thus Moses, when he had the privilege of receiving the Torah, first recited a blessing, and then he read it. R. Eleazar asked: What was the blessing which Moses recited before reading it? [It was], Blessed art Thou, O Lord, King of the Universe, who hast chosen this law and sanctified it and hast found pleasure in them who fulfil it. He did not say, ' in them that labour at it,' nor, ' in them who meditate in it,' but, ' in them that fulfil it,' that is to say, in them who carry out the words of the Torah.

Numbers Rabbah 10:8

For thus have the Sages said: Keep away from a small sin lest it lead you to a grievous one; run to fulfil a small commandment, for it will lead you to an important one.

Talmud
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Chagigah 4b

Samuel went and brought Moses with him, Saying to him: Perhaps, Heaven forfend,21 I am summoned to Judgment: arise with me,22 for there is nothing that thou hast written in the Torah, which I did not fulfil.

Arachin 22a

R. Papa said: The paying of a debt is a commandment and [minor] orphans are not obliged to fulfil the commandment.

Mishnah
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AVOT 4:9

R. JONATHAN SAID: WHOEVER FULFILS THE TORAH OUT OF [A STATE OF] POVERTY, HIS END [WILL BE] TO FULFIL IT OUT OF [A STATE OF] WEALTH; AND WHOEVER DISCARDS THE TORAH OUT OF [A STATE OF] WEALTH, HIS END [WILL BE] TO DISCARD IT OUT OF [A STATE OF] POVERTY.

 

[D.W.]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. We are saved by faith in him not by keeping any law. It's faith, not works, folks.

Shalom angela 2,

Jesus did not say at any time that he was the fulfillment of the Law, instead he said the law has not been fulfilled. As to the keeping of the Law, no one was ever saved by keeping the law, it was always faith with G-d's mercy.

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[Steve Petersen]

'Break one, break them all' (James 2;10) has to do with justification. This is evident from a verse later in this chapter:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The subject of chapter 2 is about faith and works together result in justification.

Now, if we are not talking about justification, but sanctification that is a different matter.