Leviticus 18:22

[The Thadman]

Fomwatts/Thadman:

I say all of this to ask you, have you not considered the possibility that in your day and time of the 21st century, your take on the phrase, "those who sleep with males" or even "if a man lies with mankind as with womankind" is produced due to your present day understanding of what you know to be homosexuals? That is, today we have committed, loving homosexuals in relationships similar to any heterosexual couple. This, I do not believe, existed or is presented in bible days as presented in scripture. Have you not considered the possibility of a particular context and form of same sex acts that occurred in Paul's day and time and that is what Paul is referring to. Ofcourse, you nor I would be aware of what specifics are in Paul's mind, but I'm sure you see my point. You won't even entertain the idea, will you? Too much of a stretch or too much out of your comfort zones?

In agape love,
leecappella

Lee, although that is a nice anecdote, I find it completely irrelivant to the current conversation. This is not a matter of prejudice, and not a matter of modern interpretation.

Paul was writing to the Corinthians because such relationships existed that were monogomous and loving as well as sick and perverse. Roman and Greek culture were full of exclusively monogomous same-sex relationships which were carried out as if they were heterosexual, history proves this.

Having friends who are homosexual, I -have- entertained this idea, but history does not support it. Paul's words are backed with 3000 years of history, litterally, or idiomatically. My understanding has come from trying to ignore modern doctrine and look back as far and as completely as I could. "Those (male) who sleep with men" was what Jewish Rabbi's in the 1st Century described some of the Preconsuls in the Roman government who were like modern relationships today.

No matter how refined this gets, it is sin. It goes against the plan that God put down since the pages of Genesis, and was carried through even to Paul. I can love my parents but go against the 10 Commandments and lie to them to make them feel better, or improve their chances, or because I don't want them to get hurt over something trivial. The fact of the matter is, am I right? I can love someone, but go against God's commands, and have a homosexual relationship with them because we both have the same feelings for eachother, and we work together like no one else. The fact of the matter is, am I right?

Lee, my concern with you is that you won't even entertain the idea, will you? Too much of a stretch or too much out of your comfort zone? What if you're wrong?

-Is is worth the risk- ?

And if it is worth the risk, what is your reason to chance it?



Shlomo,
-Steve-o

 

[FOMWatts<><]

have you not considered the possibility that in your day and time of the 21st century, your take on the phrase, "those who sleep with males" or even "if a man lies with mankind as with womankind" is produced due to your present day understanding of what you know to be homosexuals?

No, I did not consider that, and though I wish it were true for the friends I have that are gay, I am confident that the Bible is true and that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God does NOT change, MAN DOES. God said that men should not lie with mankind as he does with womankind there are no exceptions mentioned in there. God does not change His rules.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

That is, today we have committed, loving homosexuals in relationships similar to any heterosexual couple. This, I do not believe, existed or is presented in bible days as presented in scripture.

You'de be correct and incorrect. King James was seen as a homosexual in many people's eyes and was openly attracted to his assisstant and many other males that he dealt with .

You are right in another aspect, man was not so openly blatant in refusing to obey God's commands. This is an unfortunate trend unfolding even today in our society.

Have you not considered the possibility of a particular context and form of same sex acts that occurred in Paul's day and time and that is what Paul is referring to. Of course, you nor I would be aware of what specifics are in Paul's mind, but I'm sure you see my point. You won't even entertain the idea, will you? Too much of a stretch or too much out of your comfort zones?

I have considered EVERY aspect of excuses to sin and especially those pertaining to homosexuality because I have MANY friends that are gay and I would love for them to be able to be normal in a Biblical viewpoint. But I have come to the realization that God is not hiding His meanings from us and does not hide His rules from our hearts. He wants us to know His rules and because of that fact HE PLAINLY wrote them. So no I will not entertain the thought because God's Word is plainly and Divinely written. As far as it being out of my comfort zone, I will not take offense to that because I know myself better than that. I find that it MAY be out of your comfprt zone to know that you are living in sin or someone you know is living in sin. I would venture to say that you know the truth in your heart and if not God wil reveal that truth to you. God bless!

FOMWatts<><

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Fomwatts -

I never thought you a gay basher or hater or anything like that. I know there are people in the world who do not see things as I or anyone else does, but that is no license for me to think of you or those who hold your view as gay bashers or such. I totally respect your opinion, I just disagree with you, that's all! . . .

No offense, but I didn't see FOMWatts doing any bashing or hating of homosexuals. Just rather pointing out where the law was against it. That's not hateful at all... just truthful. It's not hateful to tell someone who lies a lot that the law is against lying.

Unless FOMWatts actually said "I hate all gays" (or some inappropriate word for homosexuals) I don't think you should make that assumption. "he just disagrees with you, that's all!"

 

[leecappella]

No offense, but I didn't see FOMWatts doing any bashing or hating of homosexuals. Just rather pointing out where the law was against it. That's not hateful at all... just truthful. It's not hateful to tell someone who lies a lot that the law is against lying.

Unless FOMWatts actually said "I hate all gays" (or some inappropriate word for homosexuals) I don't think you should make that assumption. "he just disagrees with you, that's all!"

You obviously misunderstood Fomwatt's and my correspondence. I never called Fomwatts a gaybasher. Never. Where do you get that from? He simply made it known to me that he didn't want to be perceived as a gay basher and I responded to him by letting him know that I never perceived him that way. I have no clue as to why you assumed that I assumed Fomwatts was a gay basher. Just another example of misreading what is written

In agape love,
leecappella

 

[leecappella]

Thadman/Fomwatts:

Obviously, we disagree. No need to fear There will be many Christians in heaven who disagree on this or that. I do believe, however, that I am proving a point on my thread titles "1Samuel 16:7 and the Outward Appearance of Things". Some may find it difficult to reconcile one verse or passage of the bible when it seemingly contradicts another. Simply put, if God does not look on the outward appearance, but on the heart, then where this issue is concerned, God would not care about two same sex persons who have committed to one another as well as committed to Him. The inability to reconcile a passage of scripture with another could explain why no one out of 15, I think, viewers has responded to it. They may be saying, "He has a point on one end, but on the other, I know what I have been raised to believe in regards to this". What is traditional, however, is not written in stone, nor is it deemed automatically right by God.

In agape love,
leecappella

 

[leecappella]

Thadman quote: "Lee, my concern with you is that you won't even entertain the idea, will you? Too much of a stretch or too much out of your comfort zone? What if you're wrong? Is is worth the risk?And if it is worth the risk, what is your reason to chance it?"

Me: First of all, we are all wrong in one way or another about something that relates to how and what we believe, yet we carry on believing and conducting ourselves accordingly, don't we? Secondly, one should always stand up for what one believes in regardless if he or she may stand alone. It is not me who has an issue with this issue, so it is nothing that I am 'risking', so to speak. Consider Romans 14:4, 5, 10, 11, 14, 22,, and 23. This is why it is not an issue with me. Even further, I have considered the view that you have and what is known as the 'traditional view' on this issue. Anyone who is seriously seeking God and discovers they are gay does consider what has been preached since Sodom & Gomorrah, but, again, tradition is not God's guide. The Spirit is. I am the type of persons who thinks of all scenarios and possibilities and considers all sides of an issue. In the end, like you, I have to choose what does not sear my conscience. Unfortunatley, that causes there to be those on opposite sides of an issue. But, it is better to be at peace with one's conscience before God than to go alone with what a majority of humans may thing. I'm sure you would agree

In agape love,
leecappella

 

[sbbqb7n16]

You obviously misunderstood Fomwatt's and my correspondence. I never called Fomwatts a gaybasher. Never. Where do you get that from? He simply made it known to me that he didn't want to be perceived as a gay basher and I responded to him by letting him know that I never perceived him that way. I have no clue as to why you assumed that I assumed Fomwatts was a gay basher. Just another example of misreading what is written

In agape love,
leecappella

I was just readin that and read it that way. Sorry bout that I was wrong.

However I would like to say that just because I misread what you typed in a post, that that automatically jumps over and shows that I've been reading the Bible wrong (as was implied by your last statement). Obviously you know that either you are right, or we are right on this matter. I just see it very clearly that the Bible is against what you say is OK. It could just as easily be that you are misreading what is written to suit your own purposes. Funny how in an argument on interpretation, both sides feel that the other is not reading the Scripture right, isn't it? Well we both can't be right... and I don't see you even remotely open to the possibility that you are wrong despite the mounds of evidence that these others have brought to you. I see their evidence and agree with them.

 

[leecappella]

sbbqb7n16:

Apology accepted As far as me being wrong, I may come across as believing I am right with no possibility of being wrong, but that is just what your or someone else may read into what I post. If I had the attitude that I was right with no room for being wrong, that would make me like a Pharisee or Sadducee or somebody like that. Self righteous is the word. Forgive me if I come across like that or if my words seem to imply something other than what is actually stated in words. I am no more 100% sure of all that I believe about this or anything else than Fomwatts, Thadman, you, or anyone else who posts on the forum are! Don't take what I say personally, like my comment about "another example of misreading what is written". It was not directed at you. It was simply a statement pointing out, yet again, that what is written can be misunderstood. And yes, people who read the bible do that at times, including me and everyone else on the forum. According to your faith, you are right. According to my faith, I am right. That is to say, according to our personal relationships with God, our consciences are clear and convinced in one way or the other. Unfortunately, due to our unique and personal makeup and workmanship, our consciences do not fall on the same sides on this and maybe not any other issue. Though I'm sure we would agree on some things. It is God who decides whether He will or will not accept this person or that person. God may accept two people who have differing opinions on the issue. The point being who are we to question what God does? What is it to us if He is accepting of homosexuals when the majority of the world thought the opposite? We cannot stay God's hand. I do not claim to be right. I am here sharing my faith as you are. I have already been through both sides of this issue. Gay or not, I would feel the same as I do now knowing what I know. If I am cursed according to levitical law that many like to quote, then I am as Christ who was cursed as well according to levitical law by being hung on a tree. For truly, God does not turn away anyone who seeks relationship with Him with the right motives and intentions. And only God can know what those motives and intentions are.

In agape love,
leecappella

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I am no more 100% sure of all that I believe about this or anything else than Fomwatts, Thadman, you, or anyone else who posts on the forum are!

Hmm, I understand what you are saying , but this is not a questionable issue in my theological view. The Bible PLAINLY states in Greek Hebrew and English and in all reliable versions I have read and translated back to Greek that lying with another man as one lies with a woman is an abomination in God's sight. NO MORE an abomination, mind you, than lying or any other sin, but it IS a sin and is listed as such more than once in God's Word, this can not be denied or refuted with any legitmacy.

Don't take what I say personally, like my comment about "another example of misreading what is written". It was not directed at you. It was simply a statement pointing out, yet again, that what is written can be misunderstood. And yes, people who read the bible do that at times, including me and everyone else on the forum.

How can one be expected not to take what a brother in Christ says about God's Word personally? It is such a personal issue and should be treated with care and precision. Point blank, study should be put into all theological topics, but once a consensus is reached or the plain Truth of God's Word is on the table there is NO arguing with that.

According to your faith, you are right. According to my faith, I am right. That is to say, according to our personal relationships with God, our consciences are clear and convinced in one way or the other. Unfortunately, due to our unique and personal makeup and workmanship, our consciences do not fall on the same sides on this and maybe not any other issue. Though I'm sure we would agree on some things.

But don't we share our faith's? Isn't that why we are here? Let me tell you that as my brother and shareholder in Christ Jesus I care about you and love you so much. I want you to see the plain and simple Truth in God's Word. That is why I am here, not because I am determined to be viewed as RIGHT, but because I care that you believe the way you do, and I also care for my friends who are gay and dealing and healing in the same areas.

It is God who decides whether He will or will not accept this person or that person. God may accept two people who have differing opinions on the issue. The point being who are we to question what God does?

AMEN BROTHER!!! He sure does, but unfortunately, as far as this thread goes, God reveals in His Word that HE will not accept homosexuals or drunkards or a lot of other thigns...

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Just as the homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom, neither will the sexually immoral, that is to say those that "sleep around", or the drunkards, or those that cheat on their wives, or those that cheat, or those that are greedy! You see God can't accept someone that continues in their sin, so He sent a hope that is in Christ Jesus. A Healer that can transform our minds and our lives to fit into His hand, and not the opposite. It is through Jesus that we have the grace and forgiveness from God and the power to change our lives...to help me hold my tongue, to help another stop lying, to help a gay man resist the temptation, it is all separation form God, THAT IS WHAT SIN IS. That is what the verse is saying, anyone who dies in his/her sins is separated forever from God.

What is it to us if He is accepting of homosexuals when the majority of the world thought the opposite? We cannot stay God's hand.

What is it to me? It would mean that God told a fib, and that would COMPLETELY nullify my faith, because my faith is in a God that keeps His Word and His Word says plainly that it is an abomination meaning a sin, and that is what I believe it is, because the Bible, God's Holy, and Flawless, Word, says it is.

Gay or not, I would feel the same as I do now knowing what I know. If I am cursed according to levitical law that many like to quote, then I am as Christ who was cursed as well according to levitical law by being hung on a tree.

Certainly, you are not comapring yourself to Christ Jesus in this situation?!? Christ was SINLESS and BECAME sin so that you and I may find the forgiveness freely offers. HE became a curse, not for what He had done, but for the sins of the entire world. I see no comparison between cursed man and a Sacrifice. Maybe it is just me.

For truly, God does not turn away anyone who seeks relationship with Him with the right motives and intentions. And only God can know what those motives and intentions are.

AMEN AGAIN! God does not turn away those truly seek a relationship with Him. Let's see what His Book says about that...

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. 25What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? 26If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[ 3:18 Or contemplate] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever*increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

You see, it is a process of change. The Christian life doe not stop changing once one accepts Christ Jesus, it JUST begins. To be HIS, is to BE HIS, it is to let Him change you and not try to change Him. Accept Him as He is and He will change you in more ways than one. No one is through changing and we will nto be until He comes back to get us...my point is God loves you JUST AS YOU ARE, but LOVE YOU TOO MUCH to leave you that way. And me too for that matter

In agape love,
leecappella

Right back at you brother!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[leecappella]

Fomwatts, etc.:

Debates should be kept to a minimum, atleast so I was once informed. My infomant was right. I cannot make you see my way nor can you make me see yours. It is the Spirit's job to do so. I cease not because I feel you are right, but because as of now, we are on page 5 and this could go on until the end of the earth. It probably will. I agree to disagree and I will leave it at that. It's not that I have nothing further to say, but it would be pointless, as previous posts have made that clear. I've gotten quite a few votes on this forum when votes were being taken. That tells me a lot of people understand and agree with me on some level, otherwise they would not have voted for me. I'm sure you've gotten votes as well. That says the same about you also. All Christians do not have the same bible study sources or bible study tools. All Christians have their own way of perceiving things. The result of our unique workmanship is that all Christians do not agree. I'm sure I'll see you on another thread By the way, respond to my "1Samuel 16:7 and the Outward Appearance" topic. I would love to hear from you there.

In agape love,

Leecappella

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I have placed no "OPINION" in this thread, only God's Word and I don't think that is debatable. It is so sad to see a person that will not listen or heed to God's Word.

Luke 8:11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Blessings and Prayers,

FOMWatts<><