Levitical Law

[Diagoras]

Here in Canada there is a bit of a political situation brewing over the issue of extending the right to marry to gay couples. I imagine the right wingers were similarly outraged about the 'disintigration of our heritage and moral values' when women were given the vote. The main objection that I can see is a thinly veiled religious intolerance to gays based on a few lines from Leviticus. I am wondering how Christians feel about enforcing levitical law. Many of the evangicals seem to take justification from these lines in Leviticus to persecute gays and lesbians (although the Bible only mentions men, and never refers to lesbians as far as I know and Jesus never spoke of homosexuality at all). If indeed Levitical 'morality' is applicable today (as it should be unless you are a moral relativist) then should not all of the Levitical laws AND punishments be followed? Should believers wear clothes made from two types of fabrics? Should adulterers be executed? Should children who curse their parents be put to death? I know that there is no universal Christian response to this just as there is no monolithic belief system called 'Christianity' only a multitude of sects but I would like to know how people feel on this.

 

[reformedfan]

Leviticus isn't the only place in the Bible you find this prohibition, the New Testament & Christ spoke of it as well.

But anyway, God's the boss, all He needs is to say something once for it to "count"

 

[Iollain]

What does the Bible teach about practicing homosexuality? It's in the Bible, Romans 1:26-27, NIV. "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Is practicing homosexuality a sin? It's in the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, TLB. "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin."

Can a practicing homosexual go to heaven? It's in the Bible, I Corinthians 6:9, TLB. "Don't you know that those doing such things have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who live immoral lives, who are idol worshippers, adulterers or homosexuals—will have no share in his kingdom."

Like all sinners, practicing homosexuals are called to repent. It's in the Bible, I Timothy 1:10-11, TLB. "Yes, these laws are made to identify as sinners all who are immoral and impure: homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, and all others who do things that contradict the glorious Good News of our blessed God, whose messenger I am."

Sinful patterns of all kinds must stop, and need God's forgiveness. It's in the Bible, I Corinthians 6:11, NIV. "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

There is hope for the practicing homosexual. It's in the Bible, I Corinthians 10:13, TLB. "But remember this—the wrong desires that come into your life aren't anything new and different. Many others have faced exactly the same problems before you. And no temptation is irresistible. You can trust God to keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it, for He has promised this and will do what He says. He will show you how to escape temptation's power so that you can bear up patiently against it."

If you are a practicing homosexual, what should you do?

First acknowledge your sin. It's in the Bible, Psalm 51:2-4, TLB. "Oh, wash me, cleanse me from this guilt. Let me be pure again. For I admit my shameful deed—it haunts me day and night."

Second, Ask forgiveness for your sin—God says you can start over again. It's in the Bible, Psalm 51:7-12, TLB. "Sprinkle me with the cleansing blood and I shall be clean again. Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow. And after You have punished me, give me back my joy again. Don't keep looking at my sins—erase them from Your sight. Create in me a new, clean heart, O God, filled with clean thoughts and right desires. Don't toss me aside, banished forever from Your presence. Don't take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me again the joy of Your salvation, and make me willing to obey You."

Third, Believe that God has indeed forgiven you and quit feeling guilty. It's in the Bible, Psalm 32:1-6, TLB. "What happiness for those whose guilt has been forgiven! What joys when sins are covered over! What relief for those who have confessed their sins and God has cleared their record. There was a time when I wouldn't admit what a sinner I was. But my dishonesty made me miserable and filled my days with frustration. All day and all night Your hand was heavy on me. My strength evaporated like water on a sunny day until I finally admitted all my sins to You and stopped trying to hide them. I said to myself, 'I will confess them to the Lord.' And You forgave me! All my guilt is gone. Now I say that each believer should confess his sins to God when he is aware of them, while there is time to be forgiven. Judgment will not touch him if he does. You are my hiding place from every storm of life; You even keep me from getting into trouble! You surround me with songs of victory.

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[Iollain]

Diagoris, people should take the bible as a whole, not just the Old Testament, but the New.

 

[Diagoras]

I still have no answer. The real question is 'if Levitical Law' (or any biblical law) is established, should not the punishment also be respected? If Iollian is to be true to his bible should he not support death for homosexuals, adulterers etc. I would like to see a straight answer to this.

And what do you mean 'take the Bible as a whole'? Please clarify. As I often find when Christians are asked difficult questions obfuscation is the response.

 

[TheBear]

Welcome to Christian Forums, Diagoras.

This forum is for questions about Christianity, only. No debate allowed in this forum. If your desire is to debate these issues, the General Apologetics forum is where you need to be.

http://www.christianforums.com/f13-general-apologetics.html

 

[Diagoras]

Just looked up Romans 1:26-27. What does Paul mean by 'natural use into that which is against nature'? Does this mean it is against god's laws for women to perform oral sex or anal sex? And in in Romans 1:32 they are 'worthy of death'. Again, should god's will be followed by believers? Should homosexuals be put to death? What of Jesus saying that we should love one another. Putting someone to death does not seem a fitting way to show love from my perspective. And yes, Leviticus does deal with this, but so does it say 'thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind'. I assume every time a couple goes to divorce court and infidelity is the reason someone is going to die? If you recognize homosexuality as against god's laws then don't you have a duty to also recognize the punishment god has demanded?

 

[Diagoras]

To the Bear: I am not debating. I am simply asking for answers which I have not yet received. I am not debating whether the laws in the Bible are just or unjust, I simply want to know if Christians believe that Levitical law and punishments are valid.

 

[LiberatedChick]

I still have no answer. The real question is 'if Levitical Law' (or any biblical law) is established, should not the punishment also be respected? If Iollian is to be true to his bible should he not support death for homosexuals, adulterers etc. I would like to see a straight answer to this.

And what do you mean 'take the Bible as a whole'? Please clarify. As I often find when Christians are asked difficult questions obfuscation is the response.

If you read Iollians post you'll find that he quotes other verses from the bible that show homosexuality is wrong. It's not just a "few lines from Leviticus" that leads us to think this. As Iollian shows in his post there are verses in the New Testament that refer to homosexuality also. I believe what Iollian means (I may be wrong on this) when he says to "take the bible as a whole" is that you are just looking at Levitical law in the Old Testament when there's also verses in the new testament saying that homosexuality is wrong. We do not follow Levitical law anymore...we do not have to wear clothes made from one type of material, offer sin sacrifices, or punish according to those laws. And many Christians will agree with you saying that if we're going to follow part of Levitical law we should follow all of it however, saying homosexuality is a sin is not limited to a few lines of Levitical law as it's in the New Testament also.

This is yet to mention Gods view of marriage and the way He designed it. His original design in Genesis (Gen 2:24 which is repeated in the NT... Matt 19:5, Eph 5:31) is that man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. It doesn't say that man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his husband.

 

[Diagoras]

Thanks starelda. If you throw out Leviticus (and I wonder why you do not follow the laws here, but that is another question), and only follow the laws of the NT, then yes, homosexuality is frowned upon, but is there a NT punishment other than not inheriting the Kingdom of God?

 

[TheMainException]

I think that sin is sin....and I believe that God created marraige for a man and a woman....being gay is a sin....but so is cursing your parents, lying, cheating on a test, it's all wrong....but I do not believe that the old punishments should stand....sin is sin, but the punishments are past tense. We are to forgive and and sin no more....(hard to do, I know) but there is always forgiveness.....and there is still need for punishment, but now the government chooses that.

 

[Diagoras]

Thanks for your thoughts LAWise520. I wonder why you accept the Bible's admonitions that homosexuality (and adultery etc) are sins but reject the punishments? Is is permissible for a Christian to accept certain parts of the Bible (definitions of 'sin') but not other parts (the punishments for 'sin')? It seems like mainstream Christianity has accepted this philosophy. We don't see adulterers stoned in the town square after all. Thanks again for your reply.

 

[food4thought]

I think your question is a good one that even many Christians would be unsure of how to answer.
While the answer might differ slightly from one church denomination to another, the basic answer is this:
The Old Testament Law was given to National Israel as a National Law, with the understanding that they were entering into a national covenant with God. This does not reduce the moral nature or the rightness of these laws, but understand that the punishments for these laws as listed in the Old Testament were part of this covenant agreement between God and the Israeli nation. The fact that "...the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) refers back to Genesis 3 and the result of spiritual seperation from God which eventually leads to natural death and is common to all mankind.

In the New Testament, Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Laws! He then took the punishment of the death penalty for all the transgressions against the Old Testament Law that anyone has ever committed (Romans 3:21-24 "But now a righteousness from God apart from law has been made known, o which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."). For a more complete understanding of this read Romans 2 (by the way, Romans is a brilliant argument that has point building upon point leading up to our freedom in Christ in Romans 8; to really understand Romans, I would suggest you sit down and read Romans 1-8 in one sitting).

The way that this affects your question is this: we no longer relate to God under the Old Testament law, we relate to Him by believing that Jesus Christ did what the Bible said He did- pay for ALL our sins. So now we are free from this law, and we relate to God by faith in Jesus Christ.

So why is it still considered wrong to be a homosexual, you might ask? Because the moral rightness of God's law still stands. God has not changed, sin has not stopped being sin. We now follow God's moral standards not in order to enter heaven, but because we love God. Also, we know that doing these things are harmful to ourselves and/or others, and that God hates these things. So, if you love someone, you want to do those things that are pleasing to them, right? So as a nation, when we consider the legality of these things, understand that it is not an attempt by legalistic Christians trying to get everyone to conform to Levitical Law, but it is an attempt by a loving people to protect ourselves and our society from harmful practices and the consequences of them.
Galatians 6:7-8a"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his own sinful nature,from that nature will reap destruction"
Romans 1:32 "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do those very things but also approve of those who practice them"

Just as those who do not hold to a Christian worldview want to live in a society that holds to their view of right and wrong, so do we as Christians. Not because I think that everyone should be forced to live by what I think, but because God holds the fate of nations in His hands. If we as Christians believe that God is not mocked, we should not allow a minority of people to change the laws of our nation in a way that is against God.

I really want homosexuals to understand that God sees their sin as no better or worse than any other sexual sin (which includes adultery, sex out of wedlock, sex as part of worshipping false gods, etc). Homosexuality is simply the big issue today.

This is by no means a complete answer, but I hope it helps you and encourages you to look more closely at what the Bible teaches regarding homosexuality.

 

[TheBear]

I wonder why you accept the Bible's admonitions that homosexuality (and adultery etc) are sins but reject the punishments? Is is permissible for a Christian to accept certain parts of the Bible (definitions of 'sin') but not other parts (the punishments for 'sin')? It seems like mainstream Christianity has accepted this philosophy. We don't see adulterers stoned in the town square after all. Thanks again for your reply.

This isn't about accepting one part of the Bible and rejecting another.

In both the Old Testiment and the New Testiment, in both the old covanent and new, a man lying with another man like he would with a woman, is considered a sin against God. The same can be said of adultery. It is considered a sin against God in both the old law and new.

 

[Im_A]

i have some thoughts of the Levitical Law. take a look at my name

a lot of the laws in there i do believe were only for that time. take the law that says, to not trim your beard, or not to wear different types of linen in your clothes, do not cut or tattoo your body's for the dead, stone someone that practices homosexuality, beastiality, adultery.

so i think it is a good question of why don't Christians, or even Jews themselves practice the punishment. why are their Jews with cleaned shaved faces? why aren't their mass stonings downtown in the cities of homosexuals, adulterers and so on so forth? why are their Christians and who knows, maybe Jews getting tattoos?

well first off, as someone already posted, Christ came to fullfill the law. not to abolish to fulfill it. then we can find, at least to me, when you look at the fact that Christ fulfilled the law, we see Paul saying, "Do not burden your brother with your freedom." Paul mentions things about long hair being a freedom. there seems to be more freedom. but then again, one wont' believe that unless they agree with the New Testament.

my complaint is when people want to say the devil is in me or i'm sinning because i'm a Christian that views getting tattoos are just fine, and they use the verse in Leviticus but yet, they are cleaned shaved Americains, and they don't abide the full set of laws, because they don't want to go to jail by stoning a prostitute on their street corner, or a homosexual. the Bible clearly states that you break one of these commandments, you break them all. so i would have to believe there is a switch in things through the fulfillment. more personal freedom to search one's heart out with small specifics, and live in your freedom, but don't bother your brother or sister in the faith with your freedom, and live your faith in fear and trembling as it is said in Philippians, because if that wasn't' the case, and if earth law or the earth courts dictates our theology, then that means there is no such thing of absolute truth in Christianity.

now with the marrying of homosexuals, i don't know. i'm up for debate and discussion about marriage for homosexual couples outside of the church, meaning with the law and the courts. i have my questions about that, but i'm more able to see that as something possible. now with the Christian church, this is where i differ at. the Bible mentions things in the Old Testament about homosexuality, and i think the New Testament touches the topic as people have quoted scriptures here already. i'm not saying i'm against their point, but i think to look at the full extent, to say that we shouldn't marry a gay couple because of the lust, then why did Paul mention the fact that if a man and a women cannot refrain from sex, they should be joined in marriage to remain pure in the eyes of God? my point here is not whether the couple is heterosexuals, or homosexuals, but my point here is the lust. that's why i question some of the reasoning against it used by Christians. they point out the homosexual part, but they don't go further with it, because of the fact sin is sin and if their point is they shouldn't be married because of their lustful desires, because they are gay, then that means heterosexuals shouldn't be married because of sexual struggles. the only point i can see that makes a point with not marrying homosexual couples in the Christian church, is simply, that God created Adam, and Adam wanted a partner, so God created Eve. that's my take on it. i know there are Christians out that may not agree, but that's the only way i can see, coming from a Christian perspective on this, that has any logic with using the entire scriptures, instead of a verse in Leviticus, or Romans or other verses here and there. i don't know how Canada is doing it, but if it ever becomes legal here in the states for homosexual couples to get married, all i hope is that the Christian Church is not required or forced to perform the marriage. i think it should be left up to the individual church to descide on. consequences will be given either way it goes. it's hard for me to see God sanctioning a homosexual married couple, since i believe and convicted that God created Adam and then Adam wanted a partner, so God created a woman. but again outside of the church, meaning the state recongnized them as a couple, i'm not so against that. becuase one, it is outside of the Christian religion, and two, maybe it is just the courts recongnizing a need of the culture. now whether God is for that or not, i do not know. our government is not the like the Jewish form of government. we may have religious roots, but in the Old Testament, it seemed the Jewish form of government stayed more true to their religious roots or beliefs. i mean America gives the freedom to all to believe what they want, thus showing me, that it isn't totally a Christian heritage. maybe Christians were involved, and maybe prayers were made during Congressional sessions, or maybe a replica of the 10 commandments were up on the wall, but if a government is about one religion, why would that government give free reign to let other people of other religions practice in the governed area? the Jewish Government, was truly a religious country. they banned other religions practiced. look at the old laws in the Old Testament. i'm not saying i agree with it or disagree with what happened then, because we live in a different culture, and see things differently then maybe the way it was seen at that time. so i choose to not have a stance on the way things were done in the Jewish time, because i'm not Jewish, i'm a Gentile, and i live in America. so in ending, if the government doesn't force Christian pastors to marry homosexuals with laws that give them the right to marry, i don't really have a stance on that action of the government. now if the government would force Christian pastors to marry homosexuals, i would be against that. because that to me is too much invasion from the government, no matter what the issue is about. it's more of a over abuse of power from the government issue to me, than a quo say a theological issue. i have my views like i said above, is the only reason why i don't think the Christian Church should marry homosexuals. it's nothing about feeling above people. it's just a church of any religion shouldn't be forced to do what they are against in a free-society.

 

[GodFlute2]

All throughout the NT and OT it is writen that God detests homosexuals and gays(not to be inpolite). God loves that people, but hates their ways.

 

[The Midge]

Thanks starelda. If you throw out Leviticus (and I wonder why you do not follow the laws here, but that is another question), and only follow the laws of the NT, then yes, homosexuality is frowned upon, but is there a NT punishment other than not inheriting the Kingdom of God?

There are two types of law in Leviticus: ceremonial law/ specifics for Isreal and universal moral principles appicable to the aliens and all peoples. Nearly all of the former have been specifically mentioned in the NT as not being a requirement for gentiles- eating unclean foods, circumcision, sacrifices. These are part of the covenant between God and one nation. Most think that the sex laws (including incest, fornication and adultery) fall into this as well as sentencing.

As regards the inheritance of the Kingdom of God- this is different from gaining eternal life or going to heaven. I do not think it can be assumed that the two are one and the same thing. We can be saved but not live under the authority of Christ's rule, therefore not gain the benefits of that reign. I also think that there are plenty of indications that not all will be equal in heaven.

 

[The Midge]

All throughout the NT and OT it is writen that God detests homosexuals and gays(not to be inpolite). God loves that people, but hates their ways.

And adulteres, and gluttons, and those who neglect the porr, and cheats, and perverters of justice, and those who hate, murderers, theives, those who dishonour their parents...

 

[12volt_man]

Here in Canada there is a bit of a political situation brewing over the issue of extending the right to marry to gay couples. I imagine the right wingers were similarly outraged about the 'disintigration of our heritage and moral values' when women were given the vote.

I would tend to doubt that, since many of the leading suffragettes were evangelical Christians and would most likely be considered a part of the "Religious Right" (or, Evil Republicans) today.

The main objection that I can see is a thinly veiled religious intolerance to gays based on a few lines from Leviticus. I am wondering how Christians feel about enforcing levitical law.

Why? Jesus fulfilled Levitical law. Why should Christians hold others to a standard we're not held to, ourselves?

Many of the evangicals seem to take justification from these lines in Leviticus to persecute gays and lesbians (although the Bible only mentions men, and never refers to lesbians as far as I know and Jesus never spoke of homosexuality at all).

Really? Could you please give us an example of this?

And, before you say "Fred Phelps", please remember that he is considered the fringe of the fringe among Christians and is both condemned by the church at large and considered a pariah.

If indeed Levitical 'morality' is applicable today (as it should be unless you are a moral relativist) then should not all of the Levitical laws AND punishments be followed? Should believers wear clothes made from two types of fabrics? Should adulterers be executed? Should children who curse their parents be put to death? I know that there is no universal Christian response to this just as there is no monolithic belief system called 'Christianity' only a multitude of sects but I would like to know how people feel on this.

Your misconceptions about Christianity aside, we are no longer under Levitical law. Christ has fulfilled the law on our behalf.

 

[Diagoras]

I would tend to doubt that, since many of the leading suffragettes were evangelical Christians and would most likely be considered a part of the "Religious Right" (or, Evil Republicans) today.



Why? Jesus fulfilled Levitical law. Why should Christians hold others to a standard we're not held to, ourselves?



Really? Could you please give us an example of this?

And, before you say "Fred Phelps", please remember that he is considered the fringe of the fringe among Christians and is both condemned by the church at large and considered a pariah.



Your misconceptions about Christianity aside, we are no longer under Levitical law. Christ has fulfilled the law on our behalf.

Actually, one of the pioneers in the United States suffrage movement Elizabeth Cady Stanton, said
“When women understand that governments and religions are human inventions; that bibles, prayer-books, catechisms, and encyclical letters are all emanations from the brains of man, they will no longer be oppressed by the injunctions that come to them with the divine authority of ‘Thus sayeth the Lord.’”
I doubt she was an evangelical.

On to Levitical law. You say it is non-applicable. OK, I have heard others give their biblical reasoning. So why is homosexuality such a hot button with Christians when adultery etc, is not. I still can't figure this out.

As to your mention of Phelps. You mentioned him, I didn't.

Thanks for your response.