leuenberg agreement

[Esdra]

Hi

does anyone of you know the Leuenberg Agreement?

It is an Agreement for fellowship between Refomed and Lutheran Churches.

Is you're church in fellowship with a Lutheran church?

Here in Austria it is pretty normal that Reformed and Lutherans are worshipping together.


What do you think of this agreement?
And what do you think of Ecumenism between Reformed/Calvinists and Lutherans?

Esdra

 

[Universio]

Hi

does anyone of you know the Leuenberg Agreement?

It is an Agreement for fellowship between Refomed and Lutheran Churches.

Is you're church in fellowship with a Lutheran church?

Here in Austria it is pretty normal that Reformed and Lutherans are worshipping together.


What do you think of this agreement?
And what do you think of Ecumenism between Reformed/Calvinists and Lutherans?

Esdra

No I haven't heard of it before, sounds interesting. I have heard though in Germany the Reformed and Lutheran churches are in full communion. Lutheran churches are extremely rare where I am and I don't know of any official ecumenical links. I do know a Baptist minister who was ordained by Lutheran ministers to serve in a baptist church, and at my church we had a Lutheran minister and his fiancée come to tell us about his work in Hungary - so there are links. I'm in favour of building bridges between denominations

 

[Esdra]

Yes you're right, most Lutherans and reformed in Germany (as well as Austria) are in communion.

Here's the English version of the leuenberg agreement.

 

[Anoetos]

Isn't it a core Lutheran belief that baptism washes away sins and regenerates?

This is just one major belief that we differ on. There are others.

As close as we may be, and as much as we may love and work with our Lutheran brothers and sisters, what with us being sister churches of the Reformation, how can we worship with them in this way? Wouldn't this mean that we believe the same, or at least that our differences don't matter?

In fairness, I do not think they would be happy with this as well.

Have you asked at the Lutheran forum?

 

[Esdra]

Yes.
But not many answers there yet.

I've read through the agreement. And, well it sounded rather reasonable.
In Europe a full altar and pulpit communion between reformed and Lutherans seem to work well.

And yes, I think Lutherans (believe as do Catholics) in original sin and that (infant) baptism washes sins away.

 

[JM]

I wonder what the LCMS (close communion) and WELS (closed communion) think about this agreement. Many Lutherans call Calvin a scholastic and theological Nestorian so I'm not sure how 'Lutheran' or how 'Reformed' each body involved in this agreement are.

 

[Esdra]

I wonder what the LCMS (close communion) and WELS (closed communion) think about this agreement. Many Lutherans call Calvin a scholastic and theological Nestorian so I'm not sure how 'Lutheran' or how 'Reformed' each body involved in this agreement are.

The question in the Lutheran forum just made it clear that lcms/lcc and wels are not enthusiastic about this agreement. And that most of them immigrated to north America to escape the prussian unifying attempt in the 17th and 18th century.

But I guess elca are quite open about that.

 

[Esdra]

The funny thing is, before I've come to that forum I've thought that reformed and Lutherans are more or less the same, having been in a mixed church for a couple of

 

[Universio]

Yes.
But not many answers there yet.

I've read through the agreement. And, well it sounded rather reasonable.
In Europe a full altar and pulpit communion between reformed and Lutherans seem to work well.

And yes, I think Lutherans (believe as do Catholics) in original sin and that (infant) baptism washes sins away.

So, if I went to a Lutheran church in Austria or Germany, since I'm a member of a Presbyterian denomination in the uk would I be able to take communion there? Or is the intercommunal agreement only for those denominations that have signed it?

I do think churches in Europe are generally more flexible than in the US where many seem more hard-lined.

 

[Universio]

I wonder what the LCMS (close communion) and WELS (closed communion) think about this agreement. Many Lutherans call Calvin a scholastic and theological Nestorian so I'm not sure how 'Lutheran' or how 'Reformed' each body involved in this agreement are.

Early Calvinists were quite keen for intercommunion with only the Christological implications of the Lord's supper separating them, which most were willing to not see as a barrier (unlike most early Lutherans) It's a shame Cranmer failed in his ambition to organise an international protestant council to consolidate the protestant faith and agree on the language used. Perhaps intercommunion would then have come much sooner

 

[Esdra]

So, if I went to a Lutheran church in Austria or Germany, since I'm a member of a Presbyterian denomination in the uk would I be able to take communion there? Or is the intercommunal agreement only for those denominations that have signed it?

I do think churches in Europe are generally more flexible than in the US where many seem more hard-lined.

As all churches in Austria are as the elca is in the us, they have open communion.
But I think the Presbyterian church hasn't signed the agreement.
I would ask the pastor though. But I think you would be allowed to take communion.

Btw, there is even a small Presbyterian church in Austria. In rankweil, Vorarlberg. (And they're not in communion with the evangelical Lutheran and reformed church in Austria.)

Oh, and considering Germany: same as in Austria. But there are also churches like the lcms with closed communion!
And in Germany even in an ekd (=elca church) I would definitely ask the pastor. As not all churches are mixed there (unlike in Austria).

 

[Universio]

As all churches in Austria are as the elca is in the us, they have open communion.
But I think the Presbyterian church hasn't signed the agreement.
I would ask the pastor though. But I think you would be allowed to take communion.

Btw, there is even a small Presbyterian church in Austria. In rankweil, Vorarlberg. (And they're not in communion with the evangelical Lutheran and reformed church in Austria.)

Oh, and considering Germany: same as in Austria. But there are also churches like the lcms with closed communion!
And in Germany even in an ekd (=elca church) I would ask definitely ask the pastor. As not all churches are mixed there (unlike in Austria)

Ok.

PS. Just had a thought how to write a formal agreement for intercommunion is so stereotypically German with their sense of order

 

[Anoetos]

I still don't understand the mania for this kind of ecumenism.

Why is it even necessary? Why fix what's not broken?

 

[HereIStand]

Having been LCMS (and now belonging to a Presbyterian church), my experience is that LCMS churches would be opposed to the idea of communion with Reformed churches. The degree of opposition would vary. Those LCMS churches that are more confessional (based on the Lutheran Book of Concord) would be strongly opposed.

For my part, I do think a case can be made for the Lutheran understanding of the sacraments. I would disagree with idea of closed communion though, since I think it goes beyond scripture. It's unclear to me from the Gospel narratives dealing with communion and the passages in Corinthians that any sort of theological understanding of the real presence was understood or required on the the part of the communicants.

 

[Esdra]

I still don't understand the mania for this kind of ecumenism.

I think this has historical reasons. - As the Reformed and Lutheran Churches were unified by force in the 17th and 18th century by the landlords.
So maybe because of that reasons the Lutheran Church in Germany and the Reformed Church searched for an agreement.

In the Leuenberg Agreement it says (Paragraph 3):

" Faced with real differences in style of theological thinking and church practice, the Reformers could not, in faith and conscience, see their way to avoid divisions, despite the numerous things they had in common. In this Agreement, the participating churches acknowledge that their relationship to one another has changed since the time of the Reformation."
​

Why is it even necessary? Why fix what's not broken?

I think some confessional Lutherans would strongly disagree with you here, 'though.

 

[Esdra]

Having been LCMS (and now belonging to a Presbyterian church), my experience is that LCMS churches would be opposed to the idea of communion with Reformed churches. The degree of opposition would vary. Those LCMS churches that are more confessional (based on the Lutheran Book of Concord) would be strongly opposed.

For my part, I do think a case can be made for the Lutheran understanding of the sacraments. I would disagree with idea of closed communion though, since I think it goes beyond scripture. It's unclear to me from the Gospel narratives dealing with communion and the passages in Corinthians that any sort of theological understanding of the real presence was understood or required on the the part of the communicants.

I'm sure that all confessional Lutheran Churches are opposed to this agreement.
That's not different in Germany either (where there are also confessional Lutherans.)

 

[Esdra]

Ok.

PS. Just had a thought how to write a formal agreement for intercommunion is so stereotypically German with their sense of order

Yes, I think this is typical for "Deutsche Gründlichkeit" (= German throughness) .

 

[HereIStand]

I'm sure that all confessional Lutheran Churches are opposed to this agreement.
That's not different in Germany either (where there are also confessional Lutherans.)

That may be the case in Germany. I would be very surprised to find a confessional Lutheran church in the States that would favor communion with a Reformed church.

 

[Esdra]

That may be the case in Germany. I would be very surprised to find a confessional Lutheran church in the States that would favor communion with a Reformed church.

I think there is a missunderstanding going on:
I meant that the Confessional Lutherans in Germany are AGAINST communion with the Reformed. (As they are in the US).

But then, the bigger part of Lutherans in Germany are in the EKD (Evangelical Church in Germany; They're like the ELCA in the USA), and most of them are for this communion, I would say. Otherwise the EKD wouldn't have signed the agreement.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

If it involves fellowship over beer, I'm all for it.