Let's try this again

shinbits said:

Unless Bush believes the Pope has godlike qualities that that no other human has (like Mary's alleged sinlessness), there's no reason to think Bush is worshipping the Pope.

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There's also no reason to believe Roman Catholics worship Mary. Glad we cleared that up.

shinbits said:

There is reason to believe you guys worship Mary. You treat her like a god.

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Not at all. Have you ever actually bothered reading the Catechism? And who is "You"?

shinbits said:

There is reason to believe you guys worship Mary. You treat her like a god.

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According to you. Not according to us. If we are going to discussing Catholicism then, it should be done as defined by Catholics not by you.

shinbits said:

I'm talking about both. Both bowing to Mary or a statue of her are wrong, because of her godlike (or near godlike) status.

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Bowing to a person is not seen as wrong, nor does it alone indicate worship. Scripture is full of examples of people bowing as a form of respect from beginning to end (Genesis 19:1-2, Genesis 23:7, Genesis 42:6, Rev 3:9) with dozens of examples in between. Trying to make the argument that bowing to someone gives them godlike status is contradicted over and over again by scripture, which makes your arguments look rather silly.

shinbits said:

The difference is, that none of those things were prayed to, nor did they have godlike titles, like "The Queen of Heaven".

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Is the 'queen mother' title given to the mother of the Jewish kings a "godlike" title as well? When King Solomon bows down to his mother Bathsheba is he worshipping her and attributing to her a godlike status? Funny Scripture seems to not try to make the point you are -- just goes along with all that like it's perfectly acceptable.

shinbits said:

A level of reverence reserved for God.

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Yes it is. Worship is recognizing that God alone is the sole source of all. In Him we live, and move and have our being -- without Him we do not exist and are nothing. All of us, including Mary. It is not defined by 'bowing'. It does not limit us from honoring and respecting others. It does require that we acknowledge that God alone is our Creator, our Redeemer, our Sanctifier.

shinbits said:

I actually believe that many of you may not even realize that you're worshipping Mary. It's sorta like married people who are flirtation with people other than their spouse. On some level, it's adultery. Just like married men who go to strip clubs, even though it's not "technically" adultery in that no actual sex was involved, it's still adultery, because of what's in their hearts. Sure, we can't actually say for sure what's in the hearts of these men, but most of us would agree---including most of you guys, I bet---that these men are commiting adultery in their hearts.

Likewise with Mary. I can't say for sure what's in your hearts, but just like men in stripclubs, it's a safe bet (based on their actions) that it's something adulterous; in the case of Catholics and Mary, it's cheating on God by placing worship elsewhere.

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You'd lose your money on that bet.

shinbits said:

Unless Bush believes the Pope has godlike qualities that that no other human has (like Mary's alleged sinlessness), there's no reason to think Bush is worshipping the Pope.

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"Sinlessness" is a godlike quality?

Let's see.

The angels in heaven who did not rebel are sinless.
Adam and Eve were created to be sinless and were so before the fall.
When our sanctification is complete we shall be sinless.

Conclusion -- being without sin is not a quality reserved for God alone.

shinbits said:

Based on the evidence, I apparently do.

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From what I can tell, you can't tell the difference between attributes reserved soley for God alone that indeed indicate Deity, nor can you tell the difference between respect and honor vs. worship. When you start with faulty premises, faulty conclusions are bound to be the result.

shinbits said:

Mary is sinless, according to Catholics. That puts her above the rest of humanity. Mary supposedly hears and acts on prayers. That's something God does. Catholics call her the "Queen of Heaven". A queen has rank and postion over all others who are not a king; having such a rank over others in Heaven is something a god has.

The fact that Catholics give ALL these attributes to Mary, means that Catholics have given Mary a godlike status by Catholics.
So Catholic denial means nothing when they treat her like a god.

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Being sinless puts her in the same state as Adam and Eve before the fall and the same state we shall all be in when our sanctification is complete -- hardly above the rest of humanity. If anyone put her above the rest of humanity it is God himself when he chose her to be the woman from whose flesh He took flesh. Can't see any of us topping that with our mere human attempts to honor her.

The apostles heard and acted on prayers as well -- Scripture says St. Paul healed a man. Research the historical understanding of what it means to pray -- and check out the KJV usage of the word throughout -- instead of the limited version it has become today.

Jesus tells us that there have been two places of honor reserved in heaven -- at his right and left hand. So in your view these people will therefore be gods since they will have this position of honor? I suppose you believe then that two people are going to be deifed over the rest of humanity since to honor someone with a position or title in heaven means making them godlike?

shinbits said:

For reasons described in the first paragraph of this post (and many other reasons as well), you pay a similar reverence to Mary.

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As defined by you. Not by the CC

You're stifling your own reason just to win an argument and keep your falacious position. If you saw men in a strip club throwing money at a stripper, it's quite logical to discern those men have adulterous thoughts in their hearts. You can't dispute that. Thus, it is possible to tell from pics what a person's motives are.

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More faulty thinking. Bowing in front of Mary is like men throwing money at a woman in a strip club= adultery and can be seen from the pictures, because you believe it to be so.

Even though it has been pointed out that it isn't

It's only "circular reasoning" if you leave out all the reasons why that conclusion was arrived at. As it stands now, you've just purposely misquoted me, because you purposely left out all the reasons. In short, you've lied. Just like you've been doing to yourself about Catholics and Mary.

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Yes it is circular reasoning as your reason are yours and not what the CC teaches.

A redundant post for a redundant thread.

I absolutely refuse to come up with new posts about this topic- people don't pay attention the first gazillion times, so here's (essentially) a copy and paste of a few older posts of mine for your edification.

I pray thee to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! Perhaps this misconception came about from bad translation? At any rate, I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

So, on that note, let me address the topic (if it hasn’t been brought up already) of there only being one mediator between God and man- Jesus Christ. That’s a big duh and we don’t disagree. When you use that you’re arguing against a straw man and not the actual practice.

Observe: We DO go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them? Think about it.

Furthermore, when you say that we’re praying to the dead, we absolutely aren’t and scripture agrees. When you argue from this particular perspective you are actually insinuating that the God you claim to worship and believe in is the god of the dead and not the living!

However, the God I worship is the God of the living. The saints of the Church are ALIVE in Christ. I will ask them to pray for me, as I ask my other brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, and I them.

Scripture agrees (I hope you do too, otherwise you’re calling God a liar):

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”


John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.


Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”


Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"


Also, regarding veneration- yep- I sure do! I venerate icons (and I'm telling you now I don't worship the icon or the saint nor do my fellow Orthodox- so your little accusations are actually rather baseless). I venerate pictures of loved ones, I venerate my priest's and my bishop's hand (and I don't worship them either, FYI), I venerate the US flag, and I probably venerate other things too.

If this man sees the Queen as some sort of Divine figure (like how Catholics see Mary

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Mary already is divine by grace. Thats the whole point of the Christian life. God became man so that man could become god. He took on humanity so we could take on divinity. Unless maybe you are assuming the Virgin Mary failed in the very purpose of the Christian faith?

Christos Anesti said:

Mary already is divine by grace. That's the whole point of the Christian life. God became man so that man could become god.

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God became a man so that man could be forgiven and be reconciled to God. Believing man can become a god is something the Mormons believe.

God became a man so that man could be forgiven and be reconciled to God. Believing man can become a god is something the Mormons believe.

Nope it's believing what St Irenaeus taught as well as St Athanasius (the leading defender of the doctrine of the Trinity at the council of Nicea). It's as orthodox as it gets.

We participate in the Divine Nature as the Bible states.

Unashamed Jesus Freak said:

God became a man so that man could be forgiven and be reconciled to God. Believing man can become a god is something the Mormons believe.

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You are missing the significance of the lower-capital "g" at the end, there.

Unashamed Jesus Freak said:

God became a man so that man could be forgiven and be reconciled to God. Believing man can become a god is something the Mormons believe.

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You are not speaking about the same thing as Christos at all. The Mormon belief that people actually become gods (deities) in their own right is not Biblical. The understanding that people may "participate in the divine nature" as noted in 2 Peter 1:4 is quite Biblical. Protestants often understand this as being in a state of 'glorification' -- the final step in our salvation. Orthodox tend to refer to this participation in the divine nature as 'theosis'. The quote Christos provided is an ancient understanding of that concept -- Christ came to earth to lift us up to participate in the very life of the Trinity itself -- divine life. In the sense that we are glorified and participating in the nature of God, we do indeed become god. That is totally different from the Mormon concept and should not be compared as similar.

shinbits said:

Catholics assert that Mary was born sinless, and remained that way. That means what you say is wrong, because according to Catholics, she's not "divine by grace", she was devine since birth.

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Again confusion I see. Since when does sinless=divine? Adam and Eve were divine prior to the fall? The angels who never sinned are divine?

And how is it that being sinless since birth cannot be an act of grace? One cannot receive grace unless one sins? So the angels in heaven -- no grace? Adam and Eve did not 'fall from grace' -- they never had it?