Let's try this again

[shinbits]

Since that other thread's most likely going to be locked, I want to try a different aproach to that OP:

Leviticus 26:1:

"'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God."



It seems like these Catholics are disobeying God. This is clearly against the Bible.

Agree or disagree? And why?

 

[Christos Anesti]

I posted this on the last thread but no one responded to my question.

Was this a case of God telling people to make an Idol? Note that it includes an image of two Cherubim and was carried and treated with reverence.

There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

-Exodus 25:22

“You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold. Two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.

- Exodus 25:17-28

 

[narnia59]

In your view, is the Protestant woman in this photo clearly disobeying God? While you can't see it in the picture, she and a group of woman evidently have gathered around an American flag to pray.

Kneeling down to lift nation up: National Day of Prayer celebrated on Fort McPherson

How about this one:

Free, Public Domain Image: American Soldiers Paying Their Respects To Fallen Soldiers Stock Photography - Acclaim Stock Photography


I can't find the one I used to have of people kneeling to pray at the ten commandments monument that was being removed in Alabama. Ironic isn't it? A graven image of the ten commandments, and there were people bowing down to it in prayer.

I'm sure you see all of these examples to be just as clearly against the Bible, correct?

 

[narnia59]

I posted this on the last thread but no one responded to my question.

Was this a case of God telling people to make an Idol? Note that it includes an image of two Cherubim and was carried and treated with reverence.


-Exodus 25:22

- Exodus 25:17-28

Don't forget the bronze serpent Moses constructed in the desert to lift up before the people, whereby they could gaze on it and be healed. Per God's instruction I believe -- construct this graven image and use for their healing, of course as a shadow of the ultimate source of healing -- Christ on the cross.

Of course, later instead of using it as instructed and for the purpose God intended, they began to actually worship it, and it had to be destroyed.

But it would seem a clear example of a graven image being used for both the glory of God and an idol. A graven image in the form of a serpent used to point to Christ and healing. An idol worshipped as a false god. All in the same image. One would think people could understand that intent plays a role in what the 'difference' is.

 

[addo]

I posted this on the last thread but no one responded to my question.

I did. Check it out.

Was this a case of God telling people to make an Idol? Note that it includes an image of two Cherubim and was carried and treated with reverence.


-Exodus 25:22

- Exodus 25:17-28

I'll say again. But I'll say it differently:

1. Just making an image or statue isn't wrong. Look at this image. That isn't idolatry.
2. Just the act of bowing down isn't idolatry either. Read 2 Samuel 9:6. Mephibosheth came and bowed down before the beloved king. It was a sign that he was the servant of David. The isn't idolatry either.
3. So just making images or statues isn't idolatry. The single act of bowing down isn't idolatry either. But what if we combine the two? Bowing down to images or statues is idolatry. For example, if someone bows down before the sculpture of Washington on Mount Rushmore, then that would be idolatry. It's even in the Bible: ... and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. ~Leviticus 26:1 God said not to put graven images in the land and bow down before it. Because bowing down to images or statue is idolatry.

Of course, I went a bit off topic with that. Now let's bet back on topic.

In the example you provided, it is not wrong because the priest didn't bow down before the statues of the angels, but before the blank spot above the Mercy seat, where God was, just as you quoted from the Bible:

There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. -Exodus 25:22
​

Between the cherubim there was the Mercy Seat. God was on the Mercy Seat, and the priest bowed down before the Mercy Seat.

If a servant has an audience with the king, and when the servant bows down before the king, he sees that there are two other servants on the sides of the king serving him .... he's not bowing down to the servants, is he? No. He is bowing down before the king, even though there may be servants around. In the same way, the priest bowed down before the Mercy Seat, where God was, and not before the cherubim.

Also, even though God may ave ordained the making of some images He never commanded or even allowed us to bow down before those images.

 

[addo]

Don't forget the bronze serpent Moses constructed in the desert to lift up before the people, whereby they could gaze on it and be healed. Per God's instruction I believe -- construct this graven image and use for their healing, of course as a shadow of the ultimate source of healing -- Christ on the cross.

Of course, later instead of using it as instructed and for the purpose God intended, they began to actually worship it, and it had to be destroyed.

But it would seem a clear example of a graven image being used for both the glory of God and an idol. A graven image in the form of a serpent used to point to Christ and healing. An idol worshipped as a false god. All in the same image. One would think people could understand that intent plays a role in what the 'difference' is.

This example doesn't work either.

That brazen serpent was for a one-time use only. It was not used regularly in worship services, like you do with statues and images. Also, as I said, it happened once, and people did not even bow down before it. The question is this: is bowing down before images or statues idolatry or not? They didn't bow down before the serpent.

And, as I said, they didn't bow down before it. It was used only once and people didn't even bow down before it. But you make statues and bow down before them regularly. The incident of the serpent never ever happened again, in the same way Jesus wasn't crucified twice. It was a one-time event.

 

[narnia59]

This example doesn't work either.

That brazen serpent was for a one-time use only. It was not used regularly in worship services, like you do with statues and images. Also, as I said, it happened once, and people did not even bow down before it. The question is this: is bowing down before images or statues idolatry or not? They didn't bow down before the serpent.

And, as I said, they didn't bow down before it. It was used only once and people didn't even bow down before it. But you make statues and bow down before them regularly. The incident of the serpent never ever happened again, in the same way Jesus wasn't crucified twice. It was a one-time event.

Oh, so it's okay to do it 'once' just not regularly? That's a bit of a stretch. Enough to break the rubber band.

I just responded in the other thread. You are incorrect in saying that it's okay to make as long as you bow down -- at least not according to the commandment. THOU SHALL NOT MAKE.

 

[addo]

In your view, is the Protestant woman in this photo clearly disobeying God? While you can't see it in the picture, she and a group of woman evidently have gathered around an American flag to pray.

Kneeling down to lift nation up: National Day of Prayer celebrated on Fort McPherson

To pray or to pray to the flag? To pray for the flag (or nation)? To pray for what? Evidently, people also gather around in churches to pray. Please be more specific.

How about this one:

Free, Public Domain Image: American Soldiers Paying Their Respects To Fallen Soldiers Stock Photography - Acclaim Stock Photography

I still have to think about it. This one is a hard one. I don't have the answer yet. But I can make some comments, but it is not my final argument.

First of all, these men see the soldiers as dead. By dead I mean unable to do anything. They cannot participate in missions etc. They are doing it in respect for the ones that are dead. I'm not approving this practice, but I'm saying it is different. But in the Roman Catholic Church, they don't see them as "dead soldiers", they don't exactly do it to pay homage. They see them as alive, in Heaven and perfectly capable of helping you. The soldiers don't exactly see them that way.

Also, it is not exactly something done regularly.

Of course, these are just some thoughts. This is not my final argument, so please: don't respond (to this part).

I can't find the one I used to have of people kneeling to pray at the ten commandments monument that was being removed in Alabama. Ironic isn't it? A graven image of the ten commandments, and there were people bowing down to it in prayer.

Quite. God never allowed such a thing. The Ten Commandments were under God, as part of His throne; and God was the one whom the people bowed down to.

I'm sure you see all of these examples to be just as clearly against the Bible, correct?

Basically yes. But I still have to think about this one.

 

[narnia59]

To pray or to pray to the flag? To pray for the flag (or nation)? To pray for what? Evidently, people also gather around in churches to pray. Please be more specific.

I still have to think about it. This one is a hard one. I don't have the answer yet. But I can make some comments, but it is not my final argument.

First of all, these men see the soldiers as dead. By dead I mean unable to do anything. They cannot participate in missions etc. They are doing it in respect for the ones that are dead. I'm not approving this practice, but I'm saying it is different. But in the Roman Catholic Church, they don't see them as "dead soldiers", they don't exactly do it to pay homage. They see them as alive, in Heaven and perfectly capable of helping you. The soldiers don't exactly see them that way.

Also, it is not exactly something done regularly.

Of course, these are just some thoughts. This is not my final argument, so please: don't respond (to this part).

Quite. God never allowed such a thing. The Ten Commandments were under God, as part of His throne; and God was the one whom the people bowed down to.

Basically yes. But I still have to think about this one.

How do you know that the red is the intent of the person? How do you know it's not a Catholic who believes the person can indeed recognize her as she comes into their presence in the heavenly Jerusalem to pray?

And who do you believe those people would say they were bowing to in front of the ten commandments -- God or the stone monument? How can you tell by simply looking at the picture?

 

[addo]

How do you know that the red is the intent of the person? How do you know it's not a Catholic who believes the person can indeed recognize her as she comes into their presence in the heavenly Jerusalem to pray?

And who do you believe those people would say they were bowing to in front of the ten commandments -- God or the stone monument? How can you tell by simply looking at the picture?

I said: "Of course, these are just some thoughts. This is not my final argument, so please: don't respond (to this part)."

It is soooooo hard to just read, is it?

 

[boswd]

Do you think they actually feel the statue itself is Divine and holds Divine Power?

 

[boswd]

My Pastor, Pastor Bubba told me Catholics Worship Mary and statues, that's good enough for me.

 

[laconicstudent]

That man is worshiping Queen Elizabeth II.

 

[laconicstudent]

President Obama worshiping the Emperor of Japan, His Imperial Majesty Akihito.

 

[laconicstudent]

Another picture of our President, worshiping the King of Saudi Arabia this time.

 

[narnia59]

I said: "Of course, these are just some thoughts. This is not my final argument, so please: don't respond (to this part)."

It is soooooo hard to just read, is it?

Sorry, got confused regarding the meaning when you through in that colon -- evidently they can change the whole intent of a phrase and really throw it off you know.

 

[seashale76]

I can't believe the OP actually went to jesus-is-savior.com to copy and paste her pictures. It qualifies as a 'make it up if you don't actually know the facts' type of source. You lose serious cred with people if you're attempting to be serious.

 

[narnia59]

President Obama worshiping the Emperor of Japan, His Imperial Majesty Akihito.

It's okay to bow to people all you want silly....after all, no one could ever make an idol out of a person.

 

[narnia59]

I'd also like to point out that the 3rd image in the OP isn't a "graven" image at all -- therefore I would assume even the OP would have to concede that bowing to it is not a violation of God's commandment.

 

[narnia59]

Do you think they actually feel the statue itself is Divine and holds Divine Power?

Since they feel to bow and pray before it constitutes idolatry, I would have to assume they do.

You are talking about about shinbits and addo, right?