last sabbath there was a flyer in our bulletin that advertised an easter sunrise service with special music provided by our local church! the ad said worship music was provided by some local band, special music provided by the seventh day adventist church and the message by some pastor from a non-denominational church. it's going to be held out on the edge of a famous gorge here in colorado at 6:30am. my husband and i are appauled and dumfounded. we have only lived in this area for 6 months. we've never attended a church that participated in such paganism. we've heard there has been a split in this church and another church formed nearby and there is still discord in this church however we don't really know why. we sure didn't want to get into the drama preferring to be the peacemakers but we will speak up if neccessary, we're not whimps. experience has showed us that most of these inner-church squabbles are truly petty, however we don't think participating in pagan rituals is petty. has anyone else experienced this?
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Let's try it this way-SDAs & Sunrise Services
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DrStupid_Ben
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You are really just begging the question here. The poll requires one to assume that such days, which were once celebrated as pagan holidays, only have pagan meaning.
This view says that just because a day was celebrated in a certain way, by a certain group of people, that that overrides any significance that it might have as a celebration of Jesus Christ rising from the dead.
My opinion:
I say, let them have their service. It sounds like it will be a spiritually blessing worship experience for those church and community members that attend. Think of the grandeur and wonderment of worshiping God and the total redemptive work of the resurection in the splendor of a morning on a beautiful gorge in colarado. To me, it wouldn't matter on which day it took place.
This view says that just because a day was celebrated in a certain way, by a certain group of people, that that overrides any significance that it might have as a celebration of Jesus Christ rising from the dead.
My opinion:
I say, let them have their service. It sounds like it will be a spiritually blessing worship experience for those church and community members that attend. Think of the grandeur and wonderment of worshiping God and the total redemptive work of the resurection in the splendor of a morning on a beautiful gorge in colarado. To me, it wouldn't matter on which day it took place.
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I wish I could find what has been posted here hard to belive, but I don't. This includes the original post and the first response.
I say this about the original post because it is a very sad comentary about anyone, or any church, that claims to belive in the Sabbath. The Sabbath is clearly the Seal of our Creator, God. ANY recognition of Easter Sunday as a time to pay homage to the Creator of the universe is blasphemy.
I'm appaled by the second post because it clearly shows that we are in the time of Laodicea if such an action can be condoned in any way. The lax attitude about the Sabbath, and the seeming indifference to Sunday observance by those who know the truth, would seem that they are willing to accept the mark of the beast.
While Easter may indeed be a good opportunity to witness and share our faith, we as belivers in the Ten Commandments especially the first and the fourth, should not even consider observing or participating in the second greatest pagan festival day of the year, Easter (which is second only to Christmas), as a day of worship in any way.
I might suggest that if there are those who read this post and don't understand the significance of Easter as a pagan holiday it would be well to read my post on Baptized Paganisim. The "rotating date" of Easter Sunday should be enough to raise red flags for anyone that belives in the Sabbath.
Since the mark of the beast is so closley related to the antichrist I will come back and post my "Thoughts on the Biblical term Antichrist."
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
I say this about the original post because it is a very sad comentary about anyone, or any church, that claims to belive in the Sabbath. The Sabbath is clearly the Seal of our Creator, God. ANY recognition of Easter Sunday as a time to pay homage to the Creator of the universe is blasphemy.
I'm appaled by the second post because it clearly shows that we are in the time of Laodicea if such an action can be condoned in any way. The lax attitude about the Sabbath, and the seeming indifference to Sunday observance by those who know the truth, would seem that they are willing to accept the mark of the beast.
While Easter may indeed be a good opportunity to witness and share our faith, we as belivers in the Ten Commandments especially the first and the fourth, should not even consider observing or participating in the second greatest pagan festival day of the year, Easter (which is second only to Christmas), as a day of worship in any way.
I might suggest that if there are those who read this post and don't understand the significance of Easter as a pagan holiday it would be well to read my post on Baptized Paganisim. The "rotating date" of Easter Sunday should be enough to raise red flags for anyone that belives in the Sabbath.
Since the mark of the beast is so closley related to the antichrist I will come back and post my "Thoughts on the Biblical term Antichrist."
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
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To all who may read this post; Please note that this is provided as a definition and identification for the Biblical term antichrist.
The identification of the Antichrist starts with analyzing the original text.
Thoughts on the Biblical Term Antichrist
In I John 2:18, 2:22, 4:3, and II John 7 we find the term antichrist used, which has generally been understood to mean opposed to Christ, or against Christ, with the assumption that the Greek prefix anti means essentially what the English anti means. In English anti-war would rightfully be understood to mean against war, or opposed to war. However, the question must be asked, What is the primary meaning of the GREEK word anti, and how does this amplify our understanding of the biblical term antichrist?
Fortunately, there are numerous examples of the Greek term anti found in the Scripture, and an examination of them will prove helpful. There are 16 occurences of the term anti found in the New Testament, with 15 of them being translated for in the King James Bible, while one time it is translated by the phrase in the room of. Let us look at the usage first of all, which is found in Matt.2:22.
Without argument, many times one who takes the place of another does so as an antagonist, or in opposition to him, and so these words which employ the prefix anti which have the meaning of opponent as their primary meaning. An example of this would be the word antidikos[adversary] in texts such as I Peter 5:8:
But, because the bare term anti clearly utilizes the concept of substitution, it would be a mistake to examine the word antichrist without this in mind. Taking this approach, the antichrist is first of all one who seeks to take the place of [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Christ[/FONT][/FONT], to exercise authority instead of Christ. This is a concept with which the rest of the New Testament is entirely familiar, demonstrated by texts such as II Thess. 2:3,4:
Since Seventh-day Adventists have generally found the fulfillment of these prophetic symbols in the historical papacy, it is interesting to see how this understanding impacts our interpretation. Without question, the papal power has attempted to take the place of Christ by title, by pronouncement, and by practice. The term vicar of Christ is instructive to compare the context. Vicar is of Latin origin, and meansone who takes the place of, or one who acts instead of. We use the adjective vicarious to describe Christ's substitutionary sacrifice. Thus, when the pope identifies himself as the vicar of Christ, to operate in His stead, as His substitute, take note of this strange irony, then. Since both anti and vicar mean the same thing, namely substitute or one who takes the place of, the one from Greek and the other from the Latin, when the pope accepts the title vicar of Christ, he is thereby also accepting the title of anti Christ. Unfortunatly, since most assume that the anti of antichrist means only against, or in opposition to, they are looking for a fulfillment of this prophetic symbol outside the church, while the Bible clearly identifies this power as coming from within. He sits
There is no question that the antichrist of the New Testament is an opponent of the true Christ, whose work is against that of Christ. But it would be a mistake of large proportions, when discussing the term antichrist to not include the concept of substitution, which the prefix anti clearly employs, which clarifies and amplifies the mission and identity of this important prophetic symbol.
*The other usages of anti in the New Testament are as follows:
Matt. 5:38 "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
Matt. 17:27 "take, and give unto them for me and thee"
Mark 10:45 "and to give His life a ransom for many"
John 1:16 "have all received, and grace for grace"
Rom. 12:17 "recompense to man evil for evil"
I Cor. 11:15 "for (her) hair is given her for a covering"
I Thess. 5:15 "See that none render evil for evil"
Heb. 12:2 "Who for the joy that was set before Him"
James 4:15" for that ye ought to say, If the Lord"
I Peter 3:9 "Not rendering evil for evil"
** Other compound words which employ anti as a prefix include antilambano(see Luke 1:54 and Acts 20:35) translated helped and antilempsis in I Cor. 12:28 translated helpful deeds, and antileptor in Psalm 18:2 translated deliver. While there are other compound words using anti as a prefix in which the notion of against predominates, it is difficult to discern that flavor in the foregoing compound words.
Your brother in Christ,
Doc
The identification of the Antichrist starts with analyzing the original text.
Thoughts on the Biblical Term Antichrist
In I John 2:18, 2:22, 4:3, and II John 7 we find the term antichrist used, which has generally been understood to mean opposed to Christ, or against Christ, with the assumption that the Greek prefix anti means essentially what the English anti means. In English anti-war would rightfully be understood to mean against war, or opposed to war. However, the question must be asked, What is the primary meaning of the GREEK word anti, and how does this amplify our understanding of the biblical term antichrist?
Fortunately, there are numerous examples of the Greek term anti found in the Scripture, and an examination of them will prove helpful. There are 16 occurences of the term anti found in the New Testament, with 15 of them being translated for in the King James Bible, while one time it is translated by the phrase in the room of. Let us look at the usage first of all, which is found in Matt.2:22.
"But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judea in the room ofhis father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into parts of Galilee".
One of the many times anti is translated for is Matt.20:28, a passage which reads"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Another is the familiar Luke 2:2:"If a son shall ask bread of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish will he give him a serpent?"
One more example is Heb.12:16, speaking of Esau who traded his birthright:"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."*
It is clear from these usages of anti the primary meaning of the term is instead of, or in place of, consistent with the word for. If one attempts to read any of the foregoing text and in the place of for substitute against, or opposed,the logic is lost. The Son of man did give His life against many, but as a substitute for many, or in the place of many. Without argument, many times one who takes the place of another does so as an antagonist, or in opposition to him, and so these words which employ the prefix anti which have the meaning of opponent as their primary meaning. An example of this would be the word antidikos[adversary] in texts such as I Peter 5:8:
"Be sober, vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."**
But, because the bare term anti clearly utilizes the concept of substitution, it would be a mistake to examine the word antichrist without this in mind. Taking this approach, the antichrist is first of all one who seeks to take the place of [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Christ[/FONT][/FONT], to exercise authority instead of Christ. This is a concept with which the rest of the New Testament is entirely familiar, demonstrated by texts such as II Thess. 2:3,4:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
The man of sin is described as usurping authority not rightfully belonging to him, attempting to masquerade as God, sitting in the seat of God. It is interesting to note that the word translated oppose in verse 4 is again a compound word, antikeima, meaning one who lies in the place of, or one who lies against. In Rev. 13, the beast power seeks to take the place of God by exhorting [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]worship[/FONT][/FONT], something which rightfully belongs only to God, fulfilling the age-old designs of the arch-enemy, whose ambitious aspirations are recorded by the prophet Isaiah;"Thou (Lucifer) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High."(Isaiah 14:13,14)
Since Seventh-day Adventists have generally found the fulfillment of these prophetic symbols in the historical papacy, it is interesting to see how this understanding impacts our interpretation. Without question, the papal power has attempted to take the place of Christ by title, by pronouncement, and by practice. The term vicar of Christ is instructive to compare the context. Vicar is of Latin origin, and meansone who takes the place of, or one who acts instead of. We use the adjective vicarious to describe Christ's substitutionary sacrifice. Thus, when the pope identifies himself as the vicar of Christ, to operate in His stead, as His substitute, take note of this strange irony, then. Since both anti and vicar mean the same thing, namely substitute or one who takes the place of, the one from Greek and the other from the Latin, when the pope accepts the title vicar of Christ, he is thereby also accepting the title of anti Christ. Unfortunatly, since most assume that the anti of antichrist means only against, or in opposition to, they are looking for a fulfillment of this prophetic symbol outside the church, while the Bible clearly identifies this power as coming from within. He sits
"in the temple of God (II Thess.2:4)."
Paul warned the Ephesian elders;"of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:30)."
John saw in vision Babylon typified as a woman(a church) which sat on a beast. There is no question that the antichrist of the New Testament is an opponent of the true Christ, whose work is against that of Christ. But it would be a mistake of large proportions, when discussing the term antichrist to not include the concept of substitution, which the prefix anti clearly employs, which clarifies and amplifies the mission and identity of this important prophetic symbol.
*The other usages of anti in the New Testament are as follows:
Matt. 5:38 "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
Matt. 17:27 "take, and give unto them for me and thee"
Mark 10:45 "and to give His life a ransom for many"
John 1:16 "have all received, and grace for grace"
Rom. 12:17 "recompense to man evil for evil"
I Cor. 11:15 "for (her) hair is given her for a covering"
I Thess. 5:15 "See that none render evil for evil"
Heb. 12:2 "Who for the joy that was set before Him"
James 4:15" for that ye ought to say, If the Lord"
I Peter 3:9 "Not rendering evil for evil"
** Other compound words which employ anti as a prefix include antilambano(see Luke 1:54 and Acts 20:35) translated helped and antilempsis in I Cor. 12:28 translated helpful deeds, and antileptor in Psalm 18:2 translated deliver. While there are other compound words using anti as a prefix in which the notion of against predominates, it is difficult to discern that flavor in the foregoing compound words.
Your brother in Christ,
Doc
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Not trying to flame this up or anything, but I don't see any commandments telling us not to worship on other days. We have a wednesday night worship at my church. We don't treat it like sabbath, but I don't see a reason not to meet. If we have visiting speakers for a weekend, we often have meetings on sunday, some of them quite spiritual. I know a church that has its prayer meeting on sunday simply because the members live in remote areas and can't come in during the week. Doesn't mean we are discounting the Sabbath or trying to promote sunday. Sabbath is still important and kept as such. Didn't paul have meetings on sundays sometimes? Why can I only pay homage to God on a sabbath?
I have been part of these combined church events.. And generally, its been really positive, as we foster good relations with other churches and they recognise that we have something valueable to contribute - As Long as we don't compromise our beliefs. I've heard of churches that have started sundays services as well, as an evangelism thing, and pretty much everyone moves accross and joins the sabbath ones as well. I believe Ellen White even says that when the sunday laws come, we should worship on sunday AS WELL.
I'm not going to get into the paganism debate, as I dont' see the point, but I refuse to be limited to Sabbath to worship my God. I go to other churches with some of my non sda friends sometimes. They know I'm not observing it as sabbath, and I don't agree with all of what happens, but I'm there to support them as a person. I don't think I should ask them to come to mine all the time if I haven't made the effort to get into their world. And my friends respect me and are more interested in my faith because of it.
(btw, many of them now keep sabbath)
I have been part of these combined church events.. And generally, its been really positive, as we foster good relations with other churches and they recognise that we have something valueable to contribute - As Long as we don't compromise our beliefs. I've heard of churches that have started sundays services as well, as an evangelism thing, and pretty much everyone moves accross and joins the sabbath ones as well. I believe Ellen White even says that when the sunday laws come, we should worship on sunday AS WELL.
I'm not going to get into the paganism debate, as I dont' see the point, but I refuse to be limited to Sabbath to worship my God. I go to other churches with some of my non sda friends sometimes. They know I'm not observing it as sabbath, and I don't agree with all of what happens, but I'm there to support them as a person. I don't think I should ask them to come to mine all the time if I haven't made the effort to get into their world. And my friends respect me and are more interested in my faith because of it.
(btw, many of them now keep sabbath)
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DrStupid_Ben
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Two things stand out to me here:
1. In regards to "pagan" days, there needs to be some contextualizing that happens. The chapter "Culture and Biblical Understanding in a World Church" by Jon Dybdahl in Women in Ministry, (ed. Vymeister) is a good place to look at a suggestion on how much we should contexualize in our approach to history and cultures.
2. Also, there is the idea that the Seal of God should be Sabbath observance, and the Mark of the Beast is Sunday observance. While I havn't studied into it with enough depth to debate it, I feel very wary of this understanding of Revelation. In John's apocalyptic warnings, the issue seems to be focused more on the issue of beast (Emperor) worship in the whole of our lives, not just singling out the Sabbath.
I am aware that us Adventists have a long history of proving the Sabbath as the Seal of God, and I have heard the arguments before.
1. In regards to "pagan" days, there needs to be some contextualizing that happens. The chapter "Culture and Biblical Understanding in a World Church" by Jon Dybdahl in Women in Ministry, (ed. Vymeister) is a good place to look at a suggestion on how much we should contexualize in our approach to history and cultures.
2. Also, there is the idea that the Seal of God should be Sabbath observance, and the Mark of the Beast is Sunday observance. While I havn't studied into it with enough depth to debate it, I feel very wary of this understanding of Revelation. In John's apocalyptic warnings, the issue seems to be focused more on the issue of beast (Emperor) worship in the whole of our lives, not just singling out the Sabbath.
I am aware that us Adventists have a long history of proving the Sabbath as the Seal of God, and I have heard the arguments before.
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DrStupid_Ben
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The Ethiopian Church is a good example of people keeping the Sabbath (saturday) as well as taking part in Sunday services.
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I have mixed feelings about this. I see this as an opportunity to thank heaven for the gift of Jesus Christ and what He did here. Everything about that aspect of it is very good. However, the pagan aspects of it remain a factor. The bunnies and eggs are symbolic of the pagan rituals of Esthar ( ms ) . Is there anything really wrong with it? I think that depends on how the Lord is convicting your heart on all of this. If you feel the Lord is telling you not to participate then by all means don't go against His leading. However, I sort of think like Dr.Stupid does in that we can celebrate the day as the remembrance of the resurrection of Christ and all the blessings mankind has received from that event. He's alive folks, Hallelujah!!!!
Praise God for Jesus Christ. Thankyou Jesus for coming to earth so we can be saved from our sins. Help us each day to glorify Your Name and what You did here for this sin sick world.
Amen
God Bless
Jim Larmore
Praise God for Jesus Christ. Thankyou Jesus for coming to earth so we can be saved from our sins. Help us each day to glorify Your Name and what You did here for this sin sick world.
Amen
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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O
OntheDL
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Hi,
For christians to celebrate His death is to partake the communion; to celebrate His ressurrection is be baptised in the like manner of His death and resurrection.
Furthermore, the Feast of First Fruit on which He resurrected does not always fall on Sunday. It's the third day after the Passover. Passover does not always fall on Friday.
The word Easter is the anglo-saxon word for Ishtar, the fertility goddess, the queen of heaven who is also called Ashtoreth in the Bible. In 1 Kings 11:5,33, 2 Kings 23:13.
1 Kings 11:
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
...
33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
2 Kings 23:13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.
For christians to celebrate His death is to partake the communion; to celebrate His ressurrection is be baptised in the like manner of His death and resurrection.
Furthermore, the Feast of First Fruit on which He resurrected does not always fall on Sunday. It's the third day after the Passover. Passover does not always fall on Friday.
The word Easter is the anglo-saxon word for Ishtar, the fertility goddess, the queen of heaven who is also called Ashtoreth in the Bible. In 1 Kings 11:5,33, 2 Kings 23:13.
1 Kings 11:
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
...
33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
2 Kings 23:13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.
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well jmo but your answer lacks any convicition. sunrise service is a pagan ritual. no Christian should participate in pagan ritual. you cannot put Christian clothing on paganism and call it good and holy. the church of rome has done this extensively.I have mixed feelings about this. I see this as an opportunity to thank heaven for the gift of Jesus Christ and what He did here. Everything about that aspect of it is very good. However, the pagan aspects of it remain a factor. The bunnies and eggs are symbolic of the pagan rituals of Esthar ( ms ) . Is there anything really wrong with it? I think that depends on how the Lord is convicting your heart on all of this. If you feel the Lord is telling you not to participate then by all means don't go against His leading. However, I sort of think like Dr.Stupid does in that we can celebrate the day as the remembrance of the resurrection of Christ and all the blessings mankind has received from that event. He's alive folks, Hallelujah!!!!
Praise God for Jesus Christ. Thankyou Jesus for coming to earth so we can be saved from our sins. Help us each day to glorify Your Name and what You did here for this sin sick world.
Amen
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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this has nothing to do with what day you worship. this has to do with "known pagan rituals"
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gloryseven
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I hope you all have a blessed celebration of Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead. We have LOTs of spring flowers at mass. Its wonderful, especially compared to Lent, where now all we have are stick branches in vases. It is a time of sacrifice and repentance and drawing close to God in doing kindness and service to others. Jesus is alive and well. I pray that celebrating this special day will bring renewed hope and joy about His soon coming return for the church. God be with you all, bless you, comfort you and give you peace. Amen.
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DrStupid_Ben
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I agree with you that it has nothing to do with which day you worship on. It was actually thecountrydoc who made that argument:
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DrStupid_Ben
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You can just as easily say that gathering in a group was a pagan ritual, therefor no Christian should take part in gathering in a group.
There is nothing inherent in the time of morning that you gather to hold a service.
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Hello to all once again,
First, I would like to thank truthmagnant for starting this thread. I would also like to say thank you DrStupid_Ben for noticing that I objected to A day that has been chosen as a special day for worship and observance of the ressurection of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is quite clear to me, from the responses posted, that we need to go back to "square one" and take another look at who we are, what we belive, and why we belive it. In order to use an economy of words, while making a cogent response, I will come back after gathering my thoughts, and making some notes.
I must make one anaology now however. If one is married, it would be a mistake of collossal proportions to tell your spouse that you have decided honor her birthday by taking her/him out to dinner on the birth date of a former girlfriend or boyfriend. THINK ABOUT IT.
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
First, I would like to thank truthmagnant for starting this thread. I would also like to say thank you DrStupid_Ben for noticing that I objected to A day that has been chosen as a special day for worship and observance of the ressurection of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is quite clear to me, from the responses posted, that we need to go back to "square one" and take another look at who we are, what we belive, and why we belive it. In order to use an economy of words, while making a cogent response, I will come back after gathering my thoughts, and making some notes.
I must make one anaology now however. If one is married, it would be a mistake of collossal proportions to tell your spouse that you have decided honor her birthday by taking her/him out to dinner on the birth date of a former girlfriend or boyfriend. THINK ABOUT IT.
Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
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Thank you for the kind wishes, and may you have a blessed Lent and Easter.
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Thank you. May God bless you, too.
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freeindeed2
In Christ We Are FREE!
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Well, I guess you've got a point there. I never thought about it in that light ( no pun intended
). I'd say I would not atttend based on that perspective. However, I can remember having many sunrise services before that was certainly not paganistic in the least. If in this service they start to reciting some kind of chants to the sun then I would say it would be time to walk away for sure. God Bless
Jim Larmore
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