Let's talk about Universal Basic Income

[BigDaddy4]

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Sounds like I'm a shoe-in.

My minimum livable income needs are $450,000 (give or take). If you don't mind, could I please get my first annual installment in cash? And uh, up front? $10's and $20's would be perfect.

You forgot in unmarked bills, too!

 

[iluvatar5150]

Makes one wonder how entrepreneurs ever succeeded in this country

A lot of them didn't. Many more never started out, because they couldn't take the risk of leaving their corporate job.

 

[MachZer0]

They were either well off to begin with or had financial backers for the most part.

Or they made the sacrifices necessary to succeed. Not everyone believes that government is necessary for personal success

 

[MachZer0]

A lot of them didn't. Many more never started out, because they couldn't take the risk of leaving their corporate job.

A government guaranteed income won't change that

 

[iluvatar5150]

A government guaranteed income won't change that

A guaranteed income would certainly make it easier. Some sort of single-payer health insurance system would help even more.

 

[MachZer0]

A guaranteed income would certainly make it easier. Some sort of single-payer health insurance system would help even more.

Not at the income levels possible. More importantly, it makes no sense to harm one person in order to help another become an entrepreneur. It also goes contrary to the idea of entrepreneurship which involves taking a risk

 

[keith99]

If you are over 30 year's of age and making less than $30,000 a year, the system has failed you.

Yes we know, in your world there is no chance it is the individual who ahs failed.

In the real world the individual almost always is a major contributor to their own failure.

 

[iluvatar5150]

More importantly, it makes no sense to harm one person in order to help another become an entrepreneur.

I'll remember that next time you guys complain about minimum wage and various other pro-worker laws killing small businesses.

 

[MachZer0]

I'll remember that next time you guys complain about minimum wage and various other pro-worker laws killing small businesses.

Please do, and welcome aboard

 

[Joykins]

Seems like it would be a reasonable way to streamline what we now consider welfare payments. Would probably save the government a bundle.

** I would support this being only high enough to provide basic necessities (food, clothing, water, shelter, etc) so that a motive remains to seek employment for those who are not easily bored, and obviously not payable to anyone earning more than the base amount.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Seems like it would be a reasonable way to streamline what we now consider welfare payments. Would probably save the government a bundle.

** I would support this being only high enough to provide basic necessities (food, clothing, water, shelter, etc) so that a motive remains to seek employment for those who are not easily bored, and obviously not payable to anyone earning more than the base amount.

Would you favor giving payments to the 1%ers? How about the 10%ers?

I have a problem with just giving away tax dollars to people without some sort of requirement to work or at least find work. I have a bigger problem with giving these same tax dollar handouts to people who obviously don't need them.

 

[Joykins]

Would you favor giving payments to the 1%ers? How about the 10%ers?

I have a problem with just giving away tax dollars to people without some sort of requirement to work or at least find work.

I thought it was supposed to address the problem that there are a certain number of jobs that are eliminated permanently due to automation. But it's a subsistence income, so presumably there would be some motivation to get more than that.

I have a bigger problem with giving these same tax dollar handouts to people who obviously don't need them.

IIRC it's a minimum guaranteed income. If you have an income above the minimum (base amount), you shouldn't qualify for it. As I said. In addition, if you have an income below it, the benefit amount should be the amount to bring your income up to the base amount.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Tax payers. This part's actually been mentioned in the OP. You do realize this would replace the current welfare programs, yes?

Okay, so that's an even bigger expense/burden on the system than what's currently in place.

...and that's not factoring the people who would quit their jobs tomorrow in exchange for this guaranteed income.

While a person making $100k/year isn't going to quit their job for a $40k/year guarantee to sit on their butt all day, that prospect would be rather tempting for a person making $40k-$60k wouldn't it?

 

[Joykins]

Okay, so that's an even bigger expense/burden on the system than what's currently in place.

...and that's not factoring the people who would quit their jobs tomorrow in exchange for this guaranteed income.

While a person making $100k/year isn't going to quit their job for a $40k/year guarantee to sit on their butt all day, that prospect would be rather tempting for a person making $40k-$60k wouldn't it?

Given what I've seen I would expect the amount to be in the $20K range. $40k/year is close to median income and is far too high for the desired result.

 

[pyramid33]

Yes we know, in your world there is no chance it is the individual who ahs failed.

In the real world the individual almost always is a major contributor to their own failure.

I'm suggesting that anybody 30 year's of age is required to make $30,000 a year. No exception's. If a person makes less, the system has failed the people.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If you are over 30 year's of age and making less than $30,000 a year, the system has failed you.

So if there's a person who chose to drop out of school, and chose to roach their brain out on drugs, and chose to not apply themselves, that's somehow "the system's" fault? I think not...

I don't doubt there are people who fall upon legitimate misfortune via factors out of their control...I'm sure it happens occasionally. However, if you look at the data provided about low wage earners that was published by the bureau of labor statistics, and look at the high level of overlap between that and drug abuse, dropping out of high school, criminal convictions, etc... (essentially, all of the factors that would disqualify you earning a decent income), it's pretty easy to see that low income is the result of personal choices much more often that it is the result of unfortunate fate out of one's control.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Okay, so that's an even bigger expense/burden on the system than what's currently in place.

...and that's not factoring the people who would quit their jobs tomorrow in exchange for this guaranteed income.

While a person making $100k/year isn't going to quit their job for a $40k/year guarantee to sit on their butt all day, that prospect would be rather tempting for a person making $40k-$60k wouldn't it?

I thought part of the deal was that income didn't disqualify you from receiving benefits (or if it did, it was a pretty gradual roll-off), so the guy making $40k at his job wouldn't be making either $40k loafing or $40k working, he'd be making $40k loafing and $80k working.

Am I mistaken about that?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Given what I've seen I would expect the amount to be in the $20K range. $40k/year is close to median income and is far too high for the desired result.

If we're talking $20k, then we can just slide the example I provided down a few pegs and it still illustrates the point.

A person making $50k isn't going to quit their job for the $20k guarantee, however, that might be a tempting prospect for a person making $25k-$30k.

If you're a person making $25k, your take home pay is going to be roughly $370/week...if you're getting a $20k guaranteed income, your take home pay is going to be roughly $310/week (if it's taxed, if it's not taxed, then we're

If you're a janitor, what's going through your head at that point "Gee, I can either keep cleaning bathrooms for $370, or I can just go home and sit on the couch and get $310"

...keeping in mind, if that person quits, that travel expenditure of going to work & back is gone along with other expenditures that go along with having a job...that's an exchange I imagine many people in the service industry making $25k/year would gladly take.

 

[KarateCowboy]

There's this persisting idea that you somehow have to earn to not starve on the streets

Of course. That's reality. Bread doesn't make itself.

that simply doesn't work any way you look at it.

Yes it does, because bread doesn't make itself. Maybe you are a prince and all your serfs make a living for you?

Besides, if you don't earn your living and pull your weight then someone else has to support you. In that case, you're a deadweight, a freeloader, and a burden to others. It's shameful.

It undermines an individual's freedom, it creates crime due to desperation,

No it doesn't. Carrying your own weight is liberating because then you can depend on yourself. BTW, being poor does not make you a bad person. Why would monks take vows of poverty if being poor makes you a bad person? By your reasoning, the wealthiest people are the most virtuous. It's like the prosperity gospel.

and it undermines the market by creating an unwilling, easily exploitable workforce.

I'd be willing to work to earn a living. In fact, that is what I do.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I thought part of the deal was that income didn't disqualify you from receiving benefits (or if it did, it was a pretty gradual roll-off), so the guy making $40k at his job wouldn't be making either $40k loafing or $40k working, he'd be making $40k loafing and $80k working.

Am I mistaken about that?

Even if that's the case, that still leaves us with a scenario where certain people are intentionally not going to work to their full potential because they don't have to.

Let's try another example...if that guarantee of $40k is for everyone, and the options are:

A) I can either tear tickets at the movie theater for $15k/year (+ my $40k) = $55k/year

...or

B) I can go to college, apply myself, and get a job out of college making $40k (+ my $40k) = $80k/year

While someone who's driven may go route B, there are going to be plenty of people who are going to be content with going route A.

Let's face it...if a person's lazy, low-effort $55k is much more appealing than high-effort $80k